Marking Jumps and T's

[karstdvr]

For caves in Mexico, if you are relying on the permanent line arrows for navigation, then you have already made too many mistakes. What do you want the arrow to point to: (1) the nearest exit 1,000' away through a small silty tannic siphon that opens to a cenote that is impossible/ difficult to exit, (2) the exit 2,000' away in large rock floor passageway where you can easily swim three abreast. Are you diving on DPVs or swimming in sidemount, etc. Add to this that often sections of cave were explored by different teams from different cenotes and were marked accordingly. Once you are beyond the easy tourist distances, it is rare for anyone to go back and reconcile the arrows to the "fully explored" system. As an added bonus, there are people that still go in and screw around with permanent markers. You solve these issues on the surface by reviewing the map and having a good plan with contingencies based on the exits you know. A dive that ever results in trusting the direction of permanent or temporary arrows you didn't install (or confirm with your own non directional marker) was a failure before the team splashed.

You are right Mexico has its unique system of navigation markers that can be less than reliable. I remember one line arrow pointing as an exit on a side line, and was told later it lead to a choked out sink hole. Also, line arrows have their political past, and have been the subject of the famous "line arrow wars" about 15+ years ago. Sometimes I wonder, and perhaps wrong,but there doesn't seem to be a lot of incentive to make navigation in systems simpler because then it would reduce the dependency on guides.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think it's done to maintain dependency on guides. In MX, the biggest reason to hire a guide is the logistics of GETTING to the site -- where to pay, who to pay, where to get the key, or just plain how to get there. We have been diving there for eight years on a regular basis, and I have never felt the need of a guide IN the cave, other than occasionally to find the mainline in the first place .

Navigation there is complex because the caves are complex. Very shallow passage depths and ramifying passages mean a high likelihood of multiple openings to the surface, which means a spiderweb of lines and intersections, and a lot of changes of general navigation. Systems have different groups doing exploration and survey, and sometimes one groups succeeds another. And in the middle of all of it, you have the chief spider, pulling out and changing lines and navigational markers at whim.

We all deal with it. You just learn to be less dependent on the line and line markers, and pay much more attention to the maps and the cave.

 

[karstdvr]

I don't think it's done to maintain dependency on guides. In MX, the biggest reason to hire a guide is the logistics of GETTING to the site -- where to pay, who to pay, where to get the key, or just plain how to get there. We have been diving there for eight years on a regular basis, and I have never felt the need of a guide IN the cave, other than occasionally to find the mainline in the first place .

You are right about these factors. Unfortunately I have heard the selling of services, and one element was that they could help with a safe exit and deciphering the lines.

 

[TSandM]

It's sad that guides sell themselves that way, but even sadder that a certified cave diver would buy that pitch. If you can't follow your own bread crumbs, you have no business cave diving.

 

[ucfdiver]

I wonder if MX doesn't get their lines as tidy'ed up due to the fact that there's ongoing exploration projects by nearly every local, so less time is spent diving the same site over and over. In Florida, you have the majority of divers who have never been on an exploration dive and never intend to. This leads to diving your home cave over and over again. Look at the number of Ginnie and JB only divers we have in FL.

We'll argue over how high on the wall the line is in the gallery at Ginnie over and over or 5 pages on how far to move gold line out at JB, yet I have yet to hear anyone complain about the line in Convict Spring since a buddy and I replaced it several years ago now.

In Mexico, if you limited yourself to caves within 10 miles of your house, you'd have at least a dozen or more caves to dive instead of 1-2 in Florida (and frequently just one). I suspect that leads to more diverse diving and less time to nit pick where lines go and arrows point.

 

[loquat149]

There's less incentive to tidy up the lines in Mexico, mark major jumps with double arrows, and/or install distance markers because a certain someone will just come in and re-line the cave and replace everything with single red arrows. Have you dove any of the systems he's banned from, like Cenote Caracol, to see how Mexican caves can be lined?

Dave

 

[TSandM]

Yes, Caracol is fabulous. I like the distance markers, too!

 

[JohnnyC]

There's less incentive to tidy up the lines in Mexico, mark major jumps with double arrows, and/or install distance markers because a certain someone will just come in and re-line the cave and replace everything with single red arrows. Have you dove any of the systems he's banned from, like Cenote Caracol, to see how Mexican caves can be lined?

Dave

Certain someone? I didn't hear anything about that the short time I was there other than some under-their-breath stuff that I didn't understand at the time. Mind PM'ing me with some details?

 

[loquat149]

Certain someone? I didn't hear anything about that the short time I was there other than some under-their-breath stuff that I didn't understand at the time. Mind PM'ing me with some details?

 

[kafkaland]

Is he still at it? I heard that he had retired, but that's not first hand. Or is there a new spider in town?