Sure! Why not. C'mon up, water was a balmy 54 on the surface Saturday, 51 at 30 feet, and 42 at 50. We can hover over the Sikorsky.
MaxAir Swim Fins - Stay Down Longer with Less Effort
- Thread starter TECreation
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undrwater
Contributor
@Jim Lapenta , @NetDoc
Is the frog kick necessary if a fin can provide non-silting propulsion using a different kick style?
Is the frog kick necessary if a fin can provide non-silting propulsion using a different kick style?
That's up to the diver. For me, it is because the frog kick is instinctual. I have to think about doing anything else now.
undrwater
Contributor
That makes sense. I was curious in a more global sense...like if a student could demonstrate non-silting kicks using other kick styles or non-traditional fins.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I haven't tried these fins, but I've tried many, many other fins since my first set of Jet Fins in 1969. Splits, Force, Sling Shot, this, that, the one over there and that one over here. As the owner of ScubaBoard, I've been sent well over a dozen pairs of fins to test. I've tried and mastered most of the kicks out there as well. Flutter, modified flutter, frog, modified frog, split fin scull, scull, pull 'n glide, dolphin, and the list goes on and on.
If you want to reduce your air consumption, scare fewer fish and skim over the bottom without disturbing the environment or reducing the vis for your buddies: you just can't beat the frog kick. That doesn't mean many will master it to the point where it's the only kick for them. I'm OK with that. Use the kick you're used to. Use the kick you like. Dive and let dive. Just don't call us posers because you can't get it to work. That's just rude and only shows your ignorance. There are a few fins that don't seem to frog kick effectively. You can scull with a split fin, but I've yet to see an effective frog kick with one. They're just too flimsy to accommodate the frog kick. I've said all this to show why I've asked specifically about this fin and a frog kick. It either works or it doesn't. I don't need to be insulted over my kick of choice. After 47 years of diving, I'm allowed to have that preference.
If you want to reduce your air consumption, scare fewer fish and skim over the bottom without disturbing the environment or reducing the vis for your buddies: you just can't beat the frog kick. That doesn't mean many will master it to the point where it's the only kick for them. I'm OK with that. Use the kick you're used to. Use the kick you like. Dive and let dive. Just don't call us posers because you can't get it to work. That's just rude and only shows your ignorance. There are a few fins that don't seem to frog kick effectively. You can scull with a split fin, but I've yet to see an effective frog kick with one. They're just too flimsy to accommodate the frog kick. I've said all this to show why I've asked specifically about this fin and a frog kick. It either works or it doesn't. I don't need to be insulted over my kick of choice. After 47 years of diving, I'm allowed to have that preference.
OP
TECreation
Contributor
Matt, a diver for 21 years with over 500 dives tried the MaxAir at Blue Grotto. His current fin is the Mares Avanti but he feels the MaxAir has much more power and ease of use. See what he has to say.
Wow. I guess I could use the same logic to assert that you only think you can do a proper and efficient flutter kick, but you really can't.
The frog kick can be fairly efficient for trust production. The opposed fin strokes let one fin's misdirected waste momentum partly cancel the other fins misdirected waste momentum. That's all good, but with the way our bodies are, we can't move the fins right without taking on a draggy leg shape. So, the frog kick allows for efficiency gains in one place, but force a loss in another. It also forces a very low power mode. That's fine if you don't want to go anywhere and there's no current, but that's not always the case. For me, that's rarely the case.
Another option (in my opinion, a better option) would be to just use a fin that doesn't dump a bunch of misdirected waste momentum. If the fin doesn't do that, there is no need to oppose the fin strokes to get one fin's waste to cancel the other's. Then there is no need for the frog kick.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Why the emphasis on thrust over control? It's not enough for a kick to just give you thrust: you have to be able to control your position in the water column. There's no need to race though your dive: stop and take time to look at the critters. You'll actually see more if you do!
With a frog kick I can easily turn left or right without the use of my hands and even back up. Have you ever seen those photographers who have to hold or lie on the coral to take a pic? They lack the skills to hold steady in the water column. Flutter kicking can only push you forward and that's not my definition of control.
Now let's talk about current. Most flutter kickers have to be at least three feet above the bottom and even more if it's silty. With a gentle frog kick, I can take cover behind those coral heads without kicking the crap and silting out the place. While you're forced to fight the current hanging high and waste air doing so, I'm hunkered down low checking out the blennies and morays. It's no wonder you have to constantly fight current and I don't. I bet my air lasts longer too.
Here's an exercise my students now have to accomplish: Rock Jenga. Pick a spot, stop and build yourself a rock tower. It takes effort and skill to stay in one place. Most pass over the pile, drop a rock, turn and repeat. I want my students to be able to stop and keep their position in front of their masterpiece. We keep at it until they can do this reasonably well. Here's a hint: you can't do this with a flutter kick.
A necessary component of control is authority; in this case that is thrust.
That's an oversimplification, the same as if I said that a frog kick can only push you forward. There are many different ways to vector forces, and just because someone is fluttering forward or dolphin kicking forward, doesn't mean they can stop and spin about with another technique, even with the coveted helicopter technique if that's the preference.
Well, I know I don't need to be 3 or 4 feet off the bottom to flutter or dolphin kick. I can do either quite effectively less than a foot off the bottom. If it is silty, I can do a reverse dolphin kick. It is efficient and still more powerful than a frog kick. I can go slow if I want, but I still have the ability to make well over a knot if I want or need to without creating disturbances on the bottom. I'm all for using cover from current to make things easier, but there are a lot of times when I don't want to bury my nose in the sand. I want to get up off the bottom where I can look around. I don't really like the idea of having to modify what I'm going to do because what I want to do is just too hard. If you have true control, you can go where you want. That's why the authority is important. Without it, you can't control the dive. It's why I don't really like drift diving. Drift diving is an uncontrolled dive, with the only option being to go with the flow. I know that a lot of people like to drift dive, but I think that's because it is a way for them to finally have the ability to go fast for a change without working hard to do it. That speed can be fun, but I think it's even better when it's controlled.
An interesting twist: Have them build the rock tower 100 meters from the supply of rocks and see what happens. Personally, I'd use a flutter or dolphin kick in transit and only use the frog, and helicopter like techniques when I'm trying to not move very much.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
You would be surprised at the results. The frog kicker would last far longer than the flutter kicker. But the point is, while the frog kicker could do either task, the flutter kicker could only do the one you suggested. There is no fine control with flutter kicking.
You see scuba diving as some sort of race. It would appear that you have a need to go fast, fast, fast. I want to take it ultra slow, see more and stay longer. If zipping around the ocean is your cup of tea, go for it. It's certainly not mine. We'll let the reader decide who is being more reasonable here.
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