more training

[waterpirate]

The reason I am so wound up on this topic is that if the bar/time frame is skewed early in training and we give out passes when the punter is sketchy, it gets them to the next gateway where the stakes are higher without the real skills to move on. In my opinion there should never have been a choice between AOW and intro to tech. AOW should have been an automatic choice.
Eric

 

[TSandM]

I was a student who took Fundamentals with no prior team training and very little experience of diving with anyone who took that approach to things. I was woefully unprepared and unskilled, and had the poor fortune to be teamed with a diver who had 8 dives, and one who had 16. I was the experienced diver, and team leader for everything, and there was NO way I could keep a team of three together when the team was like that.

I begged for my provisional. The instructor was dubious -- one of the conditions of a provisional is that you have to expect that the student will be able to meet the standards within the six month period. Steve wasn't at all sure about me, but I told him I'd get the job done. I thought I had some solid backup for good practice, but as it turned out, I really didn't. What I had, soon after class (and thank God for it) was an equally determined buddy. Kirk and I went out and dove. We dove a lot. We practiced, and we made LOTS of mistakes. Neither of us was really very good, and we didn't have a huge amount of help, but we kept at it. Six months, almost to the day, after I took my Fundies class, I got my rec pass. Steve's comment: "You guys look like tech divers!"

You don't have to have team experience to pass Fundies. You don't have to have a huge amount of preparation. You may need those things to pass the first time through -- but if you are willing to take a provisional and WORK, you can get it done.

Rob, I hope the person you watched teach is no longer teaching for GUE. I think they have made a real effort, over the last seven years, to recruit and train people who can actually teach.

 

[Scuba gopher]

I think that any additional training is great. But the one i most strongly agree on is SDI Solo Diver.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Thanks for the clarification.

To me the provisional rating is a "delayed fail" unless the instructor is committed to actually getting the student to the bar.

That's the difference between how I understand this approach and what I've experienced with my IANTD training. In the IANTD training, the instructor was "all in" in making sure that the students either got to the bar or threw in the towel. That's a big difference from the approach of giving people a 2nd chance that may end in the same result, which is how I understand the meaning of provisional. The IANTD way shows commitment to delivering what has been sold.

I'm not saying that the course has no value, but I don't believe in "selling" something that you're not willing (or able) to deliver. They've set the bar very high in order to attract a certain type of diver to the course but in the process what's come out is that the bar is so high that few actually pass it outright. And to me, if the instructor isn't "all in" on getting the student to the bar then what they've done is create a course that *definitely* has some value (don't get me wrong) but doesn't deliver what it promises. And I do have a problem with that.

The provisional rating is a "delayed pass" if the student is committed to actually getting themself to the bar. There is plenty of feedback and analysis from the instructor to work with to get to that bar.

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So I'll repeat my point. Upholding standards is making sure that the student reaches the bar. Copping out is when you say "you fail" because you either don't have the time or the inclination to keep working with that student until the bar is achieved. That's nice and easy for GUE.... set the bar nice and high, convince a bunch of people to spend a LOT of money on a course and then tell most of them "you fail" because they don't have the time to actually teach what they said you would learn. Easy money but a serious crock if you ask me.

I honestly think as an instructor that I could say "you fail" to someone. I would have to say "*I* fail".

R..

Everything that needs to be taught in the course IS taught. The students applying the skills is what determines whether they earn a Tech pass, Rec pass, or a provisional.

The student that leaves the course with a provisional was still taught all of the skills.
My instructor was hardly earning easy money during our class.....they put in a LOT of time and effort with us during the class.

I never felt that my success in the course was dependent on the instructor...My attitude (for any class) is that my success depends on how I apply myself during the class, and how much I prepared beforehand.

If I ever "failed" a class, or for the sake of this discussion, got a provisional...... I certainly wouldn't blame my instructor for my failure.....I would just practice what I had already been taught and return later to be evaluated.

Do you feel (from your example above) that as an instructor, if one of your students earned a "D", and another earned an "A"...that you, as an instructor failed the "D" student somehow?

It's probably more accurate to say that both received equal training, and that the "D" student just needs to practice more if they desire an "A" rating.

GUE DOES have ways to define various levels of success....it is not a black-and-white "you pass" or "you fail" experience.

My attitude, as a student, is that it's up to me to earn my grade, and not my instructor.

-Mitch

To the OP: AOW and then go diving more, before considering intro to tech.

 

[Diver0001]

The reason I am so wound up on this topic is that if the bar/time frame is skewed early in training and we give out passes when the punter is sketchy, it gets them to the next gateway where the stakes are higher without the real skills to move on. In my opinion there should never have been a choice between AOW and intro to tech. AOW should have been an automatic choice.
Eric

I'd have to agree with that. I'd add that I think part of the issue is that a lot of instructors make a farce out of AOW and it's gained a reputation for being practically worthless.

R..

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Rob, I hope the person you watched teach is no longer teaching for GUE. I think they have made a real effort, over the last seven years, to recruit and train people who can actually teach.

I don't remember who it was. I'm afraid I've forgotten his name. To his credit he did look pretty sorted in the water, but for the rest his teaching style and mine are worlds apart.

R..

---------- Post Merged at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:19 AM ----------

The provisional rating is a "delayed pass" if the student is committed to actually getting themself to the bar. There is plenty of feedback and analysis from the instructor to work with to get to that bar.

Point taken. I could do with being less cynical sometimes.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've NEVER seen a student fail Fundamentals unless they quit (which I've only heard of once). A Fail rating is very uncommon, and I don't think there's any pride in failing someone.

That's interesting ... I was diving with someone in Florida a few weeks ago who failed Fundamentals, although she went on to pass it with a different instructor. There were a few ScubaBoard members in that first class, and from what I was told they all failed. I'm pretty certain you know which class, students, and instructor I'm referring to ....

.. Bob (Grateful Diver)

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The provisional rating is a "delayed pass" if the student is committed to actually getting themself to the bar. There is plenty of feedback and analysis from the instructor to work with to get to that bar.

That depends on several factors ... the instructor not least of all. I got a provisional the first time I took Fundies ... as did the other five people in my class. The instructor never came back. Some students travelled to where he was and to get re-evaluated. I couldn't afford to do that, so I waited a year until a different instructor came to my area and took the class again ... passing it the second time.

Back then there were no rec and tech distinctions ... it was pass, provisional, or fail.

So what happens to the provisional student who doesn't get an opportunity to re-evaluate within six months these days? Back then it became a fail.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

Totally off topic: Bob, I'm going to be in Vancouver soon and I asked Lynne and Peter to take me diving. Interested in tagging along?

R..

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So what happens to the provisional student who doesn't get an opportunity to re-evaluate within six months these days? Back then it became a fail.

So it is a "delayed fail" then. I feel vindicated.

\o/

R..

 

[ScubaSteve]

.........but the bar also has to be realistic...........

Why does the bar have to be set at a realistic level? Realistic for whom? Anybody that goes into a Fundies class thinking "I am going to breeze through this" has either never actually researched the course or have a terribly over-inflated sense of their abilities. Either way, they are likely to have their world rocked. Why is that a problem OR the responsibility of GUE? Why must GUE lower the bar to accommodate those people? Lowering the bar would also make it easy for the less skilled divers to pass as well. Would that not take GUE down the path that the mainstream OW agencies took? Lowering the bar to the point that you end up with nothing more than a person that can take a breath underwater and a certification?

I for one like the fact that GUE has not dropped the standards. It means that they should continue to certify excellent divers. FTR, I am not a GUE certified diver.

 

[PfcAJ]

That's interesting ... I was diving with someone in Florida a few weeks ago who failed Fundamentals, although she went on to pass it with a different instructor. There were a few ScubaBoard members in that first class, and from what I was told they all failed. I'm pretty certain you know which class, students, and instructor I'm referring to ....

.. Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post Merged at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:34 AM ----------



That depends on several factors ... the instructor not least of all. I got a provisional the first time I took Fundies ... as did the other five people in my class. The instructor never came back. Some students travelled to where he was and to get re-evaluated. I couldn't afford to do that, so I waited a year until a different instructor came to my area and took the class again ... passing it the second time.

Back then there were no rec and tech distinctions ... it was pass, provisional, or fail.

So what happens to the provisional student who doesn't get an opportunity to re-evaluate within six months these days? Back then it became a fail.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think I know which class you're referring too, and it sounds like a CF all around. I don't personally know any of those people, so I don't know what to tell you there. I've never seen someone fail Fundies who didn't quit, ymmv. I took it when it was pass-provisional-fail, too.

According to the GUE website, what happens after 6months is between you and the instructor, but all GUE requires is that you pay the registration fee again (which is like 50-75bucks, iirc). My advice is to discuss it with your instructor before you drop almost a grand between the course fee, lodging, travel, breathing gas, etc.

Current in-water instructor to student ratio is 4:1, was your class 5:1?

 

[Diver0001]

Why does the bar have to be set at a realistic level? Realistic for whom? Anybody that goes into a Fundies class thinking "I am going to breeze through this" has either never actually researched the course or have a terribly over-inflated sense of their abilities.

Agreed.

Either way, they are likely to have their world rocked.

I think this is a good thing, don't get me wrong. Being "sent back to school" can be a strong learning experience.

To be honest, even with more than a decade of technical diving, years of instructing new divers and > 1500 dives I would still love to to take the scuba version of the "kobiashi maru" (provided you lot aren't watching to document the details of my failure and garner epic amusement from it). DIR-F isn't it, but I'm pretty sure that if there is one agency that can set the bar higher than I can jump, it must be GUE.

I'm not anti GUE or anti DIR at any level. I see the value and I see the need. The only point I was trying to make is that selling something that you can't (or won't) deliver is under par.

Why is that a problem OR the responsibility of GUE? Why must GUE lower the bar to accommodate those people?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that with respect to DIR-F that they should deliver what they promise. Nothing more.

R..

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BTW.... I should say... and I say this in all seriousness..... that GUE's focus on cave diving doesn't interest me in the least.

The *last* thing that interests me is cave diving. I'm sure I could bimble around in caves because it was required for training but nothing I can imagine getting wet for can be found in a cave.

Wrecks, on the other hand..... well sign me up!

Treating a wreck like a mini cave is well... weird, wrong and dangerous. GUE are specialists in one area but they've been lucky with wrecks so far, if you ask me.

R.