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My AN/DP/Helitrox course

Discussion in 'Technical Diving Specialties' started by Marie13, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. tridacna

    tridacna ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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  2. stuartv

    stuartv Seeking the Light ScubaBoard Supporter

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    A single tank with an H valve is not redundant gas. If the tank valve O-ring blows out, you are screwed. To ME, that is not an acceptable configuration for a technical dive.

    ...

    I had a dive buddy that I dived with constantly for over a year. We both started (diving together) as OC tech divers. We did advanced wreck penetration training together, then both progressed on to diving CCR together. After over a year of diving together all the time, I finally had to tell him I would not dive with him anymore.

    That is a very tough call to make and have to tell someone. In my case, my (former) buddy constantly needed help. He made poor choices (diving deeper than his cert limits - and only for the sake of the number, not preparing properly ahead of time, being late (often because he didn't prepare properly), rushing, choosing to attempt things he did not have proper training for, etc. etc.). He didn't learn from his mistakes - making some of the same mistakes over and over again. He sometimes lashed out at me emotionally when I pointed out mistakes he was making. And, ultimately, he didn't take responsibility for some of the mistakes he made (the real clincher, to me). One time, he forgot his BO cylinder (for a CCR dive) until we were 40 miles offshore. Then he told everyone on the boat that it was my fault he didn't have his BO because I moved the truck from right next to the dock to an actual parking spot (maybe 100' from the dock?) before he got his BO out of the back. I was so mad that I decided I was not in the right state of mind to dive, so I sat the day out and offered him my BO - which he took and went diving. He also brought fins that were too small to fit over his drysuit boots - the correct ones were also in the truck. I loaned him bigger fins, too. Apparently, he was okay with taking all my stuff and going diving while I stayed on the boat because, as far as he was concerned, it was my fault he didn't have his BO in the first place. I even watched the mate on the boat clip my BO on to him (because he couldn't do it himself) and he splashed without analyzing it, checking the pressure, or making sure it was turned on.

    I continued diving with him even after that, trying to help him how I could and hoping that he would start to see the light about some of the things he was doing.

    I finally met up with him one day and had to tell him I would not dive with him anymore, and the basic reason was that he did not have the right mindset for technical diving and especially not for CCR diving. In my opinion, of course.

    That is a tough conversation to have. I can only imagine how much tougher it is for a shop owner and dive charter operator who is talking to one of "their own". My respect and condolences to anyone who ends up in that position and ultimately does what they have to do to preserve the safety of themselves and others.
     
    eleniel, lv2dive, wKkaY and 16 others like this.
  3. johndiver999

    johndiver999 Manta Ray

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    I stopped using one of those valves myself because I didn't feel comfortable with it, but perhaps once a diver is certified and they are presented with the "necessities" of making compromises, that could be something to consider.

    I think your opinion is consistent with most people with respect to unsuitability. On the other hand, I have never had a neck o-ring fail catastrophically during a dive, but I sure have heard of a lot of rebreather problems.

    I hope she returns.
     
    markmud and lowviz like this.
  4. lowviz

    lowviz Solo Diver ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Me too.

    She has a lot of wounds to lick and a lot to process. Everybody give her some slack. I predict that she will reappear in her own time and space...
     
  5. KenGordon

    KenGordon Rebreather Pilot

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    Everybody needs help at some point. I can’t stand up with a rebreather and the Ali80 bailouts. So the crew hangs the last one on me at the gate. If diving like that then the crew will be doing that for many people, saving backs, falls etc.

    The key point is that the boat is there to support the diving. If that is what it takes you need a boat that knows how to do it. If you have twelve people diving with stages then it all goes much more smoothly if the boat crew understands the kit and can help as required. Smoothly leads to fewer mistakes and so fewer accidents. It is also more fun. Nobody goes out in the morning hoping to test whether they can stretch to the floor to reach a fin or mask while wearing more than their own body weight in kit.

    Going diving should not be an exercise in being some hard bastard. It is supposed to be fun.
     
  6. Graeme Fraser

    Graeme Fraser Tech Instructor

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    Agreed.

    Now is the time for moral support and empathy for a fellow diver, not kicking the cr4p out of someone when they're down.

    @Dive Right In Scuba . I understand why you felt you needed to defend the reputation of your business and I don't think anyone here would question your judgement or commitment. Just to reassure you, I've never detected even a hint of criticism for DRIS in any of @Marie13 posts. In fact the opposite and, as a party with no first hand knowledge, I've formed a very positive opinion from everything she, and others, have written.

    Hope to see you back soon Marie13 :thumb:.
     
  7. Wookie

    Wookie Secret Field Agent ScubaBoard Business Sponsor

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    There was a one legged captain on the Fling/Spree. Boat owner wouldn’t let him dive unless he could get on/off on his own. We all tried to help him, but it was a source of pride for him.

    I worked with a one legged commercial hardhat diver in key west. To be fair, he did wear his prosthetic diving, so he would come up the ladder one step at a time. Still while wearing 100 lbs of gear.
     
  8. stuartv

    stuartv Seeking the Light ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
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    I consider myself still fairly inexperienced in tech diving and definitely CCR diving.

    What it seems like, from talking to more experience people, is that tech diving does sometimes involve making compromises. The immediate example that comes to mind is team bailout on CCR. In a perfect world, each person has all the BO gas they might need. In reality, for the really deep dives, a lot of people aren't willing or able to carry THAT much BO gas, so they go in with a plan that would require sharing BO cylinders between team members if someone had to bail on the bottom. That is a compromise that divers at that level can consider and choose whether or not to make.

    At the "lower" end of the technical diving spectrum (where I am, for example), I think it is important to take a "no compromises" approach. I feel like compromises are best reserved for people who are seriously experienced and their experience can properly inform their decision on any proposed compromise. Compromises are not for people who just got their C card.

    So, something as fundamental as fully redundant breathing gas is something I would not consider compromising on - particularly for someone who has just completed their first tech training and is now considering that as an equipment solution to a skills/ability problem (to use the standard SB cliche).

    CCR problems do happen. But, that is why all good and responsible CCR divers are carrying fully redundant gas at all times.
     
    johndiver999 likes this.
  9. Laminappropria

    Laminappropria Garibaldi

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: New York, NY
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    Hi all,
    I am a longtime lurker of SB and this thread but felt compelled to sign up in order to respond. @Dive Right In Scuba I am extremely disappointed in your response a few pages back. To air such frustrations and negativity in this public forum is shameful and unprofessional at best. There is nothing that I saw in any of @Marie13 ‘s posts that would constitute “bashing” or negativity. Is it true you will not help divers board your boat with their tanks? That’s fine, it’s completely your choice, and sharing that fact is just truth, not “bashing”. In fact her continued commitment to receiving instruction, training, and diving with you should show how committed she is to your organization. To respond with that level of public humiliation to a long term customer instead of a one on one discussion is not how one does business.
    And regarding the others who are passing judgment on @Marie13 - who are you to judge? Has she said anything that would indicate she chooses to willfully dive past her limits? Or that she wants to forego proper training? (The limits put in place by DRIS were for doubles - a new configuration for her. The next dives she did were in a single tank config.) The fact that she seeks feedback here and is still determined to continue following her passion despite the fact it’s not coming easily shows that she is of the learning mindset. Personally, I am not a naturally good diver. I am a naturally middling diver who worked - and continues to work - really hard to become a good diver. There is no such thing as a naturally born real tech diver and anyone who uses that phrase is a true ass hat. Or maybe some of you came out of the womb with a perfect hover and back kick in which case I tip my hat to you good sirs. Put your sticks down and try to show some human decency, support, and helpful solutions for someone who is pursuing this passion we all share.
     
    ChuckP likes this.
  10. wetb4igetinthewater

    wetb4igetinthewater Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I'm not so sure that helping someone in and out of a boat is such an issue.

    I think a far more important issue is whether a diver can rescue a dive buddy on those technical dives with all the equipment. That in my opinion should be the baseline on whether or not someone should be certified as a technical diver.
     

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