NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[Thalassamania]

I listen to those who have, especailly those that are not so strung out on testosterone and ego that what they have to say gets badly garbled.

I'm curious as to why the locations are so important. I guess the identities of those I "trusted" (or should I say who trusted me to perform properly) will be next. Let's just say that the caves are ones that you've likely been in (or would like to get to, but are closed to you) and the people that I exchanged trust with were people that you would at least know of, who were either showing me somthing or were providing me with a "busmans' holiday" when we were engaged in something else, like a conference or aquaCorps business.

 

[Thalassamania]

One of the most important rules of cave diving is maintaining a continuous guideline to open water. At the beginning of each cave dive, the team is supposed to run a reel to the mainline. (Whether or not that is actually done is a topic for a different day.)

I've run a reel plenty in open water. It’s not the same thing as running a reel when you are negative trim heading into a cave. Trying to find a place to tie off for a primary and secondary tie in the opening of a cave (and of course trying to read your way into the cave, finding suitable tie off points that aren't "boobs without nipples") and trying to discern which direction the main line is something that just isn't practical to replicate outside of a cave. Add to that that in some cave systems in Florida, you will have flow that you have to swim/pull against while you run the reel.

That's just the start of the dive.

While that's all true, how does that relate to the question at hand? Those are all things that a reasonably intelligent and experienced diver would know, would expect, or could learn from reading, talking, or on a forum like this. Class not required. BTW: why not cast a few such difficult tie offs so that folks could begin to face that challenge in confined water?

Then there is reading the cave once you start the dive. In Devil's for example, there is a section at the entrance called the Gallery. If you do not approach the Gallery correctly, you will wind up getting beat up by the flow. Reading a just the first 500ft of Devil's is not something you learn in open water. It’s something you experience in the cave where you learn where the flow might be strong and where it might be mild.

And this is part of what a cave instructor might show as part of a cave class.

... or that one might know from having run transect lines is areas like Palancar where drift diving is the usual SOP.

BTW, I am not some expert cave diver. But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn recently (and took some cave training).

Its not rocket science to know that you need to keep out of the flow as best you can, that's true in any environment, unless you can make the flow work for you (as we often do, riding the rip on the way out).

I never once called you an idiot. I never once questioned your skill at the diving you do. As a matter of fact, I am pretty convinced you might a damn good diver after reading your resume. However, damn good divers have killed themselves without proper training.

As do damn good divers with proper training, damn good divers who provide proper training, damn good divers who wrote the book concerning proper training, etc.

I understand that you can teach yourself anything. I have taught myself sidemount diving. However, I still plan on taking a class from the experts when I return to the country before I take it in to any caves. Of course a change of gear configuration is something much easier to teach yourself then a change in diving. Hell, a non-diver could teach themselves how to do a deep trimix no mount cave dive by reading and practicing. Does that mean it is smart to do? Hell no.

The question was, to paraphrase, "is it possible?" You seem to be agreeing with me that, indeed, it is possible. I am agreeing with you that it is likely more efficient to take a class.

A lot can be said for formal instruction. I do not claim, and never had claimed to be a cave diving god. I only have ten years experience in it. I consider myself a newb.

I already answered your question. Just because you do not like my answer, does not make it false.

I am not trying to start a fight here, or name call, or disrepsect anyone. If you feel I have, then I apologize. I simply feel that some things a person, no matter how good they might be at it, is better actually learning it then reading about it before they try to do it.

All I am saying is that there are many ways to learn, not all of them are PC within the community that "claims" to hold sway over the activity.

Whats the question? I don't want to go through all this thread to find out...

My original statement (and the way I usually approach things) was:

"Whenever you take on a new thing it is good to go back to the beginning and work your way back up, just to be sure you didn't miss anything. I don't cave dive, but if I decided to do so I would not embark on any of the course sequences that are out there, I would find an instructor who was willing to start working with me as though I had never been diving before and go through each and every step, as quickly as I was able to progress."

To which I added (in keeping with the OP): "We are talking about minimum gear configuration for an intro class, that means leadership personnel in close attendance and no severe restrictions. While I agree that it is better, in a whole bunch of ways, to train the way you should dive, using a single with a slingshot should not, for an intro class, be prohibited, IMHO."

Then AJ got on his high and mighty horse: "Ok, I see where this is headed. More comments on cave diving from the non-cave certified peanut gallery.

Leadership personell? Two guys got LOST in JB 2 weeks ago. Come on. With a single tank, the clock is ticking. Fast."

There are so many things wrong with that post, in so many directions and in so many ways, that I responded with a correction and clarification and ultimately a thought experiment: "OK, let's try it out front.

Imagine Dirk Pitt, a diver who has:

• been diving for more than 50 years.
• has dove every environment that there is to dive on earth, with the exception of long cave penetrations, including icebergs, deep wrecks, even hot springs in a cold water suit.
• has been under the Arctic and Antarctic ice.
• has saturated in underwater habitats.
• has been teaching diving scientists and others for more than 40 years.
• was a pioneer in introducing the science community first to computers and NITROX and then to mixed gas and rebreathers, long before the public, or even the cave community, saw any of them.

Then let's stipulate that:

• he has shown himself to be virtually impossible to panic.
• has plus or minus three inch buoyancy control.
• has never left a silt trail anywhere in his life.
• can cut tables for virtually any mix on the fly in his head, etc.

What is this person going to learn from in a cave diving course that he would not better learn from reading and a few good check-dives with, say Edd or Bozanic, or some other serious expert?

How far back from Dirk Pitt do we have to move him before said cave diving course has real utility?"

I am still waiting for an answer. Adobo and James have provided some interesting side lights, but nothing that really addresses the two bolded questions.

Whatever happened to:

If haven't made the dives, listen to those who have;

Was my answer no good?

Your answer was interesting, but it was to some questions that I had not asked (see above).

 

[tridacna]

I am not some expert cave diver. But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn recently (and took some cave training).

Ahem. Holiday Inn EXPRESS. I now see why you're not an expert.