Need more gas - now what?

[PfcAJ]

What kind of argumentation is that?
People probably flew around in the air with a rubber band engine and a tarp once upon a time. So what?

It’s added complication and huge downsides for no real gain. The ONLY thing that’s even a little bit neat is that you can donate a long hose with it. But it stops there. You’re still unable to access the gas in a tank with a failed reg, an inadvertently unplugged tank requires knob fiddling or going to a buddy to find something to breath, it DOES add opportunities for mechanical failure. All this because what? So you can donate a long hose when you’re on a deco bottle? Great...

And that quote is nothing but frontrunning the art of internet bashing. Congratulations for picking up the beton, even though the context is obviously lost in the transition.

The context isn’t lost at all. The z system is a perfect example of focusing on some phobia (not being able to immediately donate the long hose) that ignores the obvious drawbacks. Par for the UTD course i suppose. Even if it hurts your feefees George hit the nail on the head.

Besides, those doubles on your back, you'll be on them less than 25% of the dive if going to 280ft. - and those same guys that you mention, did go on to add and employ a different solution, which paradoxally also had a QC6 on it.

You need the volume though. And you need to be able to access the volume. How long you are on backgas isn’t relevant.

Btw I dive an rb80. I know a bit about qc6 connectors and why the rebreather uses them. Guess what? None of us dive a QC6 lp manifold for open circuit diving....

Even so, I'm not saying what you're diving is bad or lesser than, and my way or the high way, or anything to that effect. I'm posting a video explaining manifolds in general, which is actually advocating the traditional hogarthian setup to the same level, if any at all, as the Z-system.

I've been more than fair and balanced in explaining pro's and con's on an even field.
Just argue the matter at hand.

The matter at hand is the make believe idea that the z system has merit. It doesn’t (unless you’re trying to separate a fool from his money). None of the foremost explorers in the world use that thing. No one. The only guys that do are UTD myrmidons.

 

[Dan_P]

Condescend, hardly a new trick either.

- You say the QC6 is a problem, but then when challenged on the statement, it's not really.
- You say the base of a backmounted twinset has value, but you're disregarding whether you're on that base or not.
- You say mechanical failure is a problem (probability) without taking into account effect (consequence).
- You say the motivation for Z system is in selling courses, to someone whose students mostly dive backmount.
- You say the merit is in profit, when one of the whole ideas is that you can do everything with one single rig (rather than buying, say, a single tank rig, a doubles rig, an RB80 rig and a sidemount rig, all with each their sets of tanks and regs.
- You say this has anything to do with my feelings, when all I've done is speak - in a nuanced and fair fashion - about advantages to high-pressure manifolding, low-pressure manifolding and individualized tanks, in backmount and sidemount, respectively. I haven't at any point condescended you or belittled the way anyone chooses to dive.

It’s added complication and huge downsides for no real gain. The ONLY thing that’s even a little bit neat is that you can donate a long hose with it. But it stops there. You’re still unable to access the gas in a tank with a failed reg, an inadvertently unplugged tank requires knob fiddling or going to a buddy to find something to breath, it DOES add opportunities for mechanical failure. All this because what? So you can donate a long hose when you’re on a deco bottle? Great...

Added complication? Which courses and dives have you even done on it?
Huge downsides? You can't feasibly access all gas on both tanks at this point in time. I've been open about that. When do you need it? You'll always have at least half of the gas you need for two divers to reach the next gas. And if you do need to bring a second diver, they'll have tanks that you can rotate in.
It's only a real issue if you've experienced:
1) No team management (loss of team)
and
2) No gas management (breached Rock Bottom and continued diving)
and
3) A specific mechanical failure

One would be equally up the creek in backmount in that eventuality given the mechanical failure is a manifold one.
You're really getting bombastic over that scenario?
Speaking of phobias and fixation...

If you're saying that the donation doesn't matter, you may as well always dive indies (including backmount) and be back in the late 1980´s.

That said, this was a neutral conversation on the reason why one would choose to manifold, including in the case of the hogathian rig that you're advocating - so there's really no need to feel hurt over it.
Just watch the video if you don't believe me.

 

[PfcAJ]

Condescend, hardly a new trick either.

- You say the QC6 is a problem, but then when challenged on the statement, it's not really.
- You say the base of a backmounted twinset has value, but you're disregarding whether you're on that base or not.
- You say mechanical failure is a problem (probability) without taking into account effect (consequence).
- You say the motivation for Z system is in selling courses, to someone whose students mostly dive backmount.
- You say the merit is in profit, when one of the whole ideas is that you can do everything with one single rig (rather than buying, say, a single tank rig, a doubles rig, an RB80 rig and a sidemount rig, all with each their sets of tanks and regs.
- You say this has anything to do with my feelings, when all I've done is speak - in a nuanced and fair fashion - about advantages to high-pressure manifolding, low-pressure manifolding and individualized tanks, in backmount and sidemount, respectively. I haven't at any point condescended you or belittled the way anyone chooses to dive.




Added complication? Which courses and dives have you even done on it?
Huge downsides? You can't feasibly access all gas on both tanks at this point in time. I've been open about that. When do you need it? You'll always have at least half of the gas you need for two divers to reach the next gas. And if you do need to bring a second diver, they'll have tanks that you can rotate in.
It's only a real issue if you've experienced:
1) No team management (loss of team)
and
2) No gas management (breached Rock Bottom and continued diving)
and
3) A specific mechanical failure

One would be equally up the creek in backmount in that eventuality given the mechanical failure is a manifold one.
You're really getting bombastic over that scenario?
Speaking of phobias and fixation...

If you're saying that the donation doesn't matter, you may as well always dive indies (including backmount) and be back in the late 1980´s.

That said, this was a neutral conversation on the reason why one would choose to manifold, including in the case of the hogathian rig that you're advocating - so there's really no need to feel hurt over it.
Just watch the video if you don't believe me.

QC6 can come unplugged. That *is* a problem when a QC6 input is driving your entire breathing system. If it comes unplugged your backup reg no longer works.

The consequence is you can’t breath without turning knobs or deploying a shower hose that has a shutoff on it.

Exactly what “rig” are you talking about? Do you not need two 1st stages to dive with doubles with the z system? Do you not need more lift when diving two steels tanks (can the z system even accommodate this)?

I don’t need to “do a course” to see the obvious limits of this system. With an HP manifold (bm doubles) a reg failure still leaves you access to all the gas. For instance, loss of the o-ring between the lp hose and reg isn’t a show-stopper for that bottle. With the z system (and really any SM system) that bottle is toast. That’s a distinct disadvantage. It’s prudent to maintain a configuration that maintains access to your gas in case of a piddly o-ring failure. There just isn’t enough margin. You *could* have reserve gas in this scenario but instead you are either razor thin or relying on your buddy. Wanna talk about something that doesn’t scale? A major leak is very likely to lead to silting and potential buddy separation. Maybe not in some sterile environment like a pool but there are plenty of environments where things can get real out of hand real fast.

The neat thing about manifolds is that they don’t fail catastrophically. I’ve NEVER seen a manifold leak other than perhaps champagn bubbles, and that’s few and far between. LP hoses and reg o-rings fail pretty regularly. The probability of that is relatively high, and the consequence is loss of half of your gas. The probability of a manifold failure is incredibly low, and even those failures are easily resolved.

It’s not a “neutral” convo when you’re acting like the z system is a good idea.

 

[tbone1004]

@Dan_P the alpha/delta does not have enough lift for a lot of rebreather applications, especially with the steel tanks we require for cave diving. It is not able to deal with doubles either, however the Dive Rite Nomad can do all three decently well if you wanted to and the Z system can go onto that. Either way, the rig is not the problem, the problem is the cost of the extra hoses, QC6's and the manifold block. All other things equal, assuming a second stage costs what the QC6 does, you have an extra $500 in the manifold and pair of female QC6 hoses. So that $500 is in addition to anything else and it can't save you money. It literally can't.

You still need a dedicated singles or doubles rig because UTD does not make a rig that does it all and you hardly need multiple regulator sets. So the Alpha/Delta is just a less useful copy of the Dive Rite Nomad XT that's been out for close to 20 years.

Your protocol and scalability goes out the window with the CCR's. As soon as a loop is involved, you can't donate the primary out of your mouth, so why force sidemount into donating out the mouth?

 

[Coztick]

I see the Z as an excellent solution for 2 reasons.
You gain acceptance, configuration wise, with agencies that demand primary donation for all team divers.
And you can dive sm in poluted waters and not have to switch to the "regulator of poo..."
I have no need to do either but otherwise I'm with you.

 

[KevinNM]

George Irvine got it right. “If you see something that is a complete mess, makes no sense, is less than optimal, or is designed to accommodate some phobia while ignoring all else, you are dealing with a stroke.”

Is there something like a little red book of sayings of chairman George?

 

[Dan_P]

It’s not a “neutral” convo when you’re acting like the z system is a good idea.

So just discuss things with people who see things the same way you do. Again, watch the video and tell me it's not neutral.

The neat thing about manifolds is that they don’t fail catastrophically. I’ve NEVER seen a manifold leak other than perhaps champagn bubbles, and that’s few and far between. LP hoses and reg o-rings fail pretty regularly. The probability of that is relatively high, and the consequence is loss of half of your gas. The probability of a manifold failure is incredibly low, and even those failures are easily resolved.

So a manifold failure is not really a problem, because they're rare? I've touched on this in the talk on probability versus consequence.

I don’t need to “do a course” to see the obvious limits of this system.

QC6 can come unplugged. That *is* a problem when a QC6 input is driving your entire breathing system. If it comes unplugged your backup reg no longer works.

The consequence is you can’t breath without turning knobs or deploying a shower hose that has a shutoff on it.

The issue and reason I'm asking, is because of the idea that we can formulate deductions or decisions about a system that it's too complicated, without spending any efford trying to understand it.
I don't subscribe.
Conversely, I'm not saying that "other ways" are wrong. I've even said that I'd prefer not to dive manifolded if I were a solo diver, and why. I think there's a difference when I state that I, seperate from the core content, state that I have a preference, and why.

Exactly what “rig” are you talking about? Do you not need two 1st stages to dive with doubles with the z system? Do you not need more lift when diving two steels tanks (can the z system even accommodate this)?

What does the number of regulators needed mean? You'll need one 1st stage per tank, no matter what system you dive. I don't understand how that would make any difference between one system and another.
What I mean is, I can scale one system to any requirement. I don't need to buy new, separate ones.

With an HP manifold (bm doubles) a reg failure still leaves you access to all the gas. For instance, loss of the o-ring between the lp hose and reg isn’t a show-stopper for that bottle. With the z system (and really any SM system) that bottle is toast. That’s a distinct disadvantage. It’s prudent to maintain a configuration that maintains access to your gas in case of a piddly o-ring failure. There just isn’t enough margin. You *could* have reserve gas in this scenario but instead you are either razor thin or relying on your buddy. Wanna talk about something that doesn’t scale? A major leak is very likely to lead to silting and potential buddy separation. Maybe not in some sterile environment like a pool but there are plenty of environments where things can get real out of hand real fast.

If you lose a regulator, you swap to your backup. Therein a distinct difference between indies sidemount and Z system.
I've spoken extensively about the various pro's and con's in each approach, and when they make sense and don't, in the video.

Your protocol and scalability goes out the window with the CCR's. As soon as a loop is involved, you can't donate the primary out of your mouth, so why force sidemount into donating out the mouth?

Why ever insist on a consistent gasshare protocol, then? We might as well all dive Air2s, if this is a solid argument.
Every existing rebreather has a loop that is not donatable. That's the name of that game. Full-face masks the same.

@Dan_P the alpha/delta does not have enough lift for a lot of rebreather applications, especially with the steel tanks we require for cave diving. It is not able to deal with doubles either, however the Dive Rite Nomad can do all three decently well if you wanted to and the Z system can go onto that. Either way, the rig is not the problem, the problem is the cost of the extra hoses, QC6's and the manifold block. All other things equal, assuming a second stage costs what the QC6 does, you have an extra $500 in the manifold and pair of female QC6 hoses. So that $500 is in addition to anything else and it can't save you money. It literally can't.

I don't see the lift issue relating to CCR. And I don't see a need to use steel tanks either.

I see that if I'm purchasing a single tank set, a double tank set, a sidemount set and a rebreather set (base - wing, harness, etc.), it'll start to run up real quick. With a single Z system, you don't need to.

 

[tbone1004]

@Dan_P if you were a cave diver, you would quickly see the need for steel tanks

Please stop talking about the alpha/delta system. The Nomad XT is $800 and actually has enough lift to do doubles *which the Z-system can't*, so it will actually do all 4 and you can put the z-manifold on there.

and we don't insist on a consistent gas share protocol. On open circuit we donate the the reg in the mouth in backmount. In sidemount, there is a small possibility that you have to donate the long hose that isn't in your mouth. In technical diving you should always have warning and be able to switch to that reg and throw it out. On a CCR you can't donate what's in your mouth so you donate the long hose, or give the other dive a stage bottle so you aren't tied to them.

The Z-system ONLY solves two problems which is in open circuit sidemount when you are on the short hose, and it saves you from doing double deco. It does nothing on a ccr, and does nothing in a backmounted twin setup unless you are insisting diving twins when they aren't easily available.

Just doesn't make the added $500+ of that system worthwhile and I REALLY don't want to be tied to my buddy for any length of time which is why we don't have 7' hoses on all of our bottles. If you have stages, you give those to the guy first and try to keep yourselves separate as long as you can

 

[Dan_P]

It’s not a “neutral” convo when you’re acting like the z system is a good idea.

So just discuss things with people who see things the same way you do. Again, watch the video and tell me it's not neutral.

The neat thing about manifolds is that they don’t fail catastrophically. I’ve NEVER seen a manifold leak other than perhaps champagn bubbles, and that’s few and far between. LP hoses and reg o-rings fail pretty regularly. The probability of that is relatively high, and the consequence is loss of half of your gas. The probability of a manifold failure is incredibly low, and even those failures are easily resolved.

So a manifold failure is not really a problem, because they're rare? I've touched on this in the talk on probability versus consequence.

I don’t need to “do a course” to see the obvious limits of this system.

QC6 can come unplugged. That *is* a problem when a QC6 input is driving your entire breathing system. If it comes unplugged your backup reg no longer works.

The consequence is you can’t breath without turning knobs or deploying a shower hose that has a shutoff on it.

The issue and reason I'm asking, is because of the idea that we can formulate deductions or decisions about a system that it's too complicated, without spending any efford trying to understand it.
I don't subscribe.
Conversely, I'm not saying that "other ways" are wrong. I've even said that I'd prefer not to dive manifolded if I were a solo diver, and why. I think there's a difference when I state that I, seperate from the core content, state that I have a preference, and why.

Exactly what “rig” are you talking about? Do you not need two 1st stages to dive with doubles with the z system? Do you not need more lift when diving two steels tanks (can the z system even accommodate this)?

What does the number of regulators needed mean? You'll need one 1st stage per tank, no matter what system you dive. I don't understand how that would make any difference between one system and another.
What I mean is, I can scale one system to any requirement. I don't need to buy new, separate ones.

With an HP manifold (bm doubles) a reg failure still leaves you access to all the gas. For instance, loss of the o-ring between the lp hose and reg isn’t a show-stopper for that bottle. With the z system (and really any SM system) that bottle is toast. That’s a distinct disadvantage. It’s prudent to maintain a configuration that maintains access to your gas in case of a piddly o-ring failure. There just isn’t enough margin. You *could* have reserve gas in this scenario but instead you are either razor thin or relying on your buddy. Wanna talk about something that doesn’t scale? A major leak is very likely to lead to silting and potential buddy separation. Maybe not in some sterile environment like a pool but there are plenty of environments where things can get real out of hand real fast.

If you lose a regulator, you swap to your backup. Therein a distinct difference between indies sidemount and Z system.
I've spoken extensively about the various pro's and con's in each approach, and when they make sense and don't, in the video.

Your protocol and scalability goes out the window with the CCR's. As soon as a loop is involved, you can't donate the primary out of your mouth, so why force sidemount into donating out the mouth?

Why ever insist on a consistent gasshare protocol, then? We might as well all dive Air2s, if this is a solid argument.
Every existing rebreather has a loop that is not donatable. That's the name of that game. Full-face masks the same.

@Dan_P the alpha/delta does not have enough lift for a lot of rebreather applications, especially with the steel tanks we require for cave diving. It is not able to deal with doubles either, however the Dive Rite Nomad can do all three decently well if you wanted to and the Z system can go onto that. Either way, the rig is not the problem, the problem is the cost of the extra hoses, QC6's and the manifold block. All other things equal, assuming a second stage costs what the QC6 does, you have an extra $500 in the manifold and pair of female QC6 hoses. So that $500 is in addition to anything else and it can't save you money. It literally can't.

I don't see the lift issue relating to CCR. And I don't see a need to use steel tanks either.

I see that if I'm purchasing a single tank set, a double tank set, a sidemount set and a rebreather set (base - wing, harness, etc.), it'll start to run up real quick. With a single Z system, you don't need to.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P
Please stop talking about the alpha/delta system. The Nomad XT is $800 and actually has enough lift to do doubles *which the Z-system can't*, so it will actually do all 4 and you can put the z-manifold on there.

and we don't insist on a consistent gas share protocol. On open circuit we donate the the reg in the mouth in backmount. In sidemount, there is a small possibility that you have to donate the long hose that isn't in your mouth. In technical diving you should always have warning and be able to switch to that reg and throw it out. On a CCR you can't donate what's in your mouth so you donate the long hose, or give the other dive a stage bottle so you aren't tied to them.

The Z-system ONLY solves two problems which is in open circuit sidemount when you are on the short hose, and it saves you from doing double deco. It does nothing on a ccr, and does nothing in a backmounted twin setup unless you are insisting diving twins when they aren't easily available.

Just doesn't make the added $500+ of that system worthwhile and I REALLY don't want to be tied to my buddy for any length of time which is why we don't have 7' hoses on all of our bottles. If you have stages, you give those to the guy first and try to keep yourselves separate as long as you can

Dive a Nomad or whatever brand all you want, noone cares and I've never said you couldn't. You can take a course in Z system with whatever regs and wing that works with basic dir principles and the Z system, and if/when someone else offers an isolatable LP manifold, you can use that, too.
It's not about that.

And you'd do things differently on CCR in either case, so how does that relate to a discussion on OC. You're then changing a gas donation protocol because you need to, to gain the advantages of CCR. That's a topic separate to any system in OC. Not isolatable to Z system.

It does keep things consistent across all your diving. I don't personally like the idea of having to swap regs and shift tanks around in a gas donation, adding the clipping off pressurized inflator hoses in icewater and whatnot, to the process. And yes, it removes the need to do double deco.
On another note, when you dive staged penetrations, at which pressure do you drop your stages when in backmount? (relating to usable gas per tank)