Need more gas - now what?
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Jack Hammer
Contributor
So people who don't cave dive know whats scalable and safer for deep dives with lengthy penetrations in a cave than the people who've actually made the dives?!?
Sometimes what's acceptable in some environments ain't so acceptable in all...
Sometimes what's acceptable in some environments ain't so acceptable in all...
OP
Dan_P
Contributor
So people who don't cave dive know whats scalable and safer for deep dives with lengthy penetrations in a cave than the people who've actually made the dives?!?
Sometimes what's acceptable in some environments ain't so acceptable in all...
What I can say is that there's significant cave experience behind the Z System and it is the primary tool on the SCKPP - even so, what I've actually done is post a video about manifolds in general, speaking about benefits and drawbacks of various ways to use them. What I haven't done, is try to force feed anything to anyone.
And I think that's fair enough.
Damn it.
@KevinNM
That one is actually in page 9 here https://www.frogkick.nl/files/george_irvine_dir_articles.pdf
Some others can be found in these articles as well.
I like this one
Although if you do that on any dive, people get annoyedGI3:
Or
GI3:
PfcAJ
Contributor
You’ve revealed my secret stash of George quotes!!Damn it.
@KevinNM
That one is actually in page 9 here https://www.frogkick.nl/files/george_irvine_dir_articles.pdf
Some others can be found in these articles as well.
I like this one
Although if you do that on any dive, people get annoyed
Or
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@Dan_P so you are agreeing that it won't save you money compared to buying traditional open circuit stuff, that's good.
You are agreeing that the gas sharing protocol isn't the same on a rebreather, so that's good
"You're then changing a gas donation protocol because you need to, to gain the advantages of CCR."
if you say that, why can't I change gas donation protocol, because I need to, to gain the advantages of sidemount?
"It does keep things consistent across all your diving."
you say that, but you contradict yourself earlier in that post by saying you have to change it. All of my diving includes CCR, and you said it isn't consistent across CCR.
I have buddies that dive backmount only, singles and doubles, their gas sharing procedure is identical regardless of having a manifold or not because it's just donate from your mouth.
When the Z-system first came out, I don't know if you were diving, or sidemount diving, or aware of UTD at the time or not, but I certainly was. It specifically came out to address the problem of not being able to donate the long hose all the time in sidemount. A problem which some people had addressed with dual long hoses before and the rest of us determined really wasn't that big of an issue.
The CCR part had been sorted out of the RB80 long before, so the Z-system doesn't really do anything for the CCR that wasn't done before anyway, and still doesn't fix the problem that you have to come off of the loop when you donate which takes a lot longer than donating the other hose in sidemount.
You have clearly believed the word of AG that it is the best thing since sliced bread, that is your call, however the cons of that system seem to continually be swept under the rug and because of that, I do truly believe it is a solution looking for a problem.
You are agreeing that the gas sharing protocol isn't the same on a rebreather, so that's good
"You're then changing a gas donation protocol because you need to, to gain the advantages of CCR."
if you say that, why can't I change gas donation protocol, because I need to, to gain the advantages of sidemount?
"It does keep things consistent across all your diving."
you say that, but you contradict yourself earlier in that post by saying you have to change it. All of my diving includes CCR, and you said it isn't consistent across CCR.
I have buddies that dive backmount only, singles and doubles, their gas sharing procedure is identical regardless of having a manifold or not because it's just donate from your mouth.
When the Z-system first came out, I don't know if you were diving, or sidemount diving, or aware of UTD at the time or not, but I certainly was. It specifically came out to address the problem of not being able to donate the long hose all the time in sidemount. A problem which some people had addressed with dual long hoses before and the rest of us determined really wasn't that big of an issue.
The CCR part had been sorted out of the RB80 long before, so the Z-system doesn't really do anything for the CCR that wasn't done before anyway, and still doesn't fix the problem that you have to come off of the loop when you donate which takes a lot longer than donating the other hose in sidemount.
You have clearly believed the word of AG that it is the best thing since sliced bread, that is your call, however the cons of that system seem to continually be swept under the rug and because of that, I do truly believe it is a solution looking for a problem.
I haven't read all the replies.
I watched the video when the post first went up but was to busy to put in a reply.
For years I dived independent 10's (litres) with various sizes of stage. (Scalability ?)
Having damaged a second stage diaphram on a 55m dive, with an absolutely requirement to return up the shot. I effectively ran out of gas at 55m unable to get to the shot.
I new we where running out because I couldn't switch cylinders. My buddy knew I was running out. It forced us to make an AAS ascent under a DSMB, with the dive boat unable to chase us down until they had recovered all the divers. we where on the surface an hour before the boat found us. I did switch off to my Stage as early as possible..
The end result of this was a switch to manifolded sets only. For a while, I dived twin manifolded 12's (litres).
On a boat, this was no issue. But beach diving it is really too heavy. Especially if you have nay distance to walk or bad terrain.
Whilst side mounts appeal because you can move individual cylinders, and clip these on in the water. For areas of bad access it reduces the weight you are moving. My big issue is the lack of a manifold (other than some form of low pressure solution).
Having played with plug in solutions a good few years back, I am not a fan. A mixture of issues of plugging in against the pressure, and restricted flows because of the self sealing mechanisms.
I have (had) loads of cylinders. Too many to keep in test.
Ultimately I moved to CCR. For a lot of my diving you could argue I don't 'need' CCR. But it removes a whole load of issues about scalability. Also, to be fair, I like CCR diving.
I have now retreated to generally having two Ali 80's for bailout. The rest of my cylinders are effectively out for loan with friends. One of the 80's has trimix bailout in it, thats now two years old. The other has a 27% mix which is now over a year old. Other than running drills, unless the **** hits the fan, they never get used.
Whilst a smaller cylinder may actually be more convenient, for a lot of diving. A 80 is so easy to handle that I don't really notice its there.
The issue of the volume of gas you require for bailout is actually a non issue in many ways. For a like for like dive e.g. 50m 1 hour, then the amount of bailout gas required is less than what would be required for the same dive on OC.
For general sports diving, I always have optimum Nitrox. We can change sites without the issue of the incorrect mix. The amount of cylinders I need are my two bailouts, and the CCR.
Most of last year I dived the CCR, one 80 bailout, and a camera. Nice easy and comfortable. Loads of weekends of 'sport diving' (i.e nothing over 50m, no deco over 45 minutes). Mostly, just needing to refill one 3l cylinder of air for the whole weekend.
Gareth
I watched the video when the post first went up but was to busy to put in a reply.
For years I dived independent 10's (litres) with various sizes of stage. (Scalability ?)
Having damaged a second stage diaphram on a 55m dive, with an absolutely requirement to return up the shot. I effectively ran out of gas at 55m unable to get to the shot.
I new we where running out because I couldn't switch cylinders. My buddy knew I was running out. It forced us to make an AAS ascent under a DSMB, with the dive boat unable to chase us down until they had recovered all the divers. we where on the surface an hour before the boat found us. I did switch off to my Stage as early as possible..
The end result of this was a switch to manifolded sets only. For a while, I dived twin manifolded 12's (litres).
On a boat, this was no issue. But beach diving it is really too heavy. Especially if you have nay distance to walk or bad terrain.
Whilst side mounts appeal because you can move individual cylinders, and clip these on in the water. For areas of bad access it reduces the weight you are moving. My big issue is the lack of a manifold (other than some form of low pressure solution).
Having played with plug in solutions a good few years back, I am not a fan. A mixture of issues of plugging in against the pressure, and restricted flows because of the self sealing mechanisms.
I have (had) loads of cylinders. Too many to keep in test.
Ultimately I moved to CCR. For a lot of my diving you could argue I don't 'need' CCR. But it removes a whole load of issues about scalability. Also, to be fair, I like CCR diving.
I have now retreated to generally having two Ali 80's for bailout. The rest of my cylinders are effectively out for loan with friends. One of the 80's has trimix bailout in it, thats now two years old. The other has a 27% mix which is now over a year old. Other than running drills, unless the **** hits the fan, they never get used.
Whilst a smaller cylinder may actually be more convenient, for a lot of diving. A 80 is so easy to handle that I don't really notice its there.
The issue of the volume of gas you require for bailout is actually a non issue in many ways. For a like for like dive e.g. 50m 1 hour, then the amount of bailout gas required is less than what would be required for the same dive on OC.
For general sports diving, I always have optimum Nitrox. We can change sites without the issue of the incorrect mix. The amount of cylinders I need are my two bailouts, and the CCR.
Most of last year I dived the CCR, one 80 bailout, and a camera. Nice easy and comfortable. Loads of weekends of 'sport diving' (i.e nothing over 50m, no deco over 45 minutes). Mostly, just needing to refill one 3l cylinder of air for the whole weekend.
Gareth
OP
Dan_P
Contributor
What? Sure, one traditional back mount rig is cheaper than one Z-System - but you can't very well make do with just one back mount rig: you need at the very least two, plus one for CCR if you have one of those.
So no, not by a long shot does it save you money to buy X amount of different rigs as opposed to just one Z System.
You can. You can dive whatever the hell you want man, no-one cares.
I've made a video explaining why people who dive high-pressure manifolds in back mount, dive that way, why people who dive indies dive that way and why people who dive low-pressure manifolds in side mount, dive that way.
Without saying anything about what anyone has to do, or belittling anyone.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone confident can feel provoked by that.
I have spoken in the video about the motivation why those who utilise a manifold in back mount, choose to do so.
Grossly inapt argumentation there.
OC. You can't say that because it's not identical with CCR, it's an inapt motivation to keep things consistant.
If your logic here is valid, then there's no reason to keep anything consistent when diving OC, because you also have a CCR and it's not the same there. So dive an Air2 and a HUB, and tell me consistency means nothing because it doesn't carry over 1:1.
It's an invalid argument.
Even so - again, I have to repeat that I've made a video about the why behind various ways to manifold. I haven't stepped on anybody's toes at any point, nor pushed anything or been unreasonable, unbalanced in my formulations, or anything of the sort;
If you have a problem with that, really, it's your problem.
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@Dan_P
Nomad XT Sidemount System | Dive Rite
this is more versatile and less expensive than the alpha-delta system, it is one rig that I personally have dove with singles, doubles, sidemount, and CCR and it does all of them quite well believe it or not
The z-system to me is a regulator configuration, and that is what I was referring to being more expensive with a cost that is not recoverable unless you play the unfair game of dedicated regulators for all systems.
The z-system is only consistent across open circuit, not all diving, it is NOT consistent with CCR, so please don't say that it is anymore. It exists to make sidemount donation protocol consistent with backmount donation protocol, and if you try to stretch it, you can say it benefits when there is an issue with decompression gases.
and I do dive different systems regularly
Single tank for me is mostly in a double hose regulator where my donation protocol is the same as on CCR with the long hose around my neck. Protocol for that is get off the loop and donate the long hose from my right shoulder d-ring.
Twinsets is standard DIR style primary donate from the 7' hose
Single tank sidemount is the same as backmount
Twin tank sidemount is long hose always and if I see someone coming at me, then I switch to the long hose to donate before they get there
CCR is the RB80 protocol with coming off of the loop to unhook the long hose and then getting back on the loop.
Any time I have a stage or deco bottle that I am breathing, I will donate the hose in my mouth.
Keeping those protocols separate is not that difficult and the only thing the z-system would do for me is allow me to not have to switch to the long hose in sidemount *which is no different than the CCR donation protocol if you think about it*, and allow me to share gas from stage/deco bottles. Realistically if I'm on a stage bottle, I want to just give him the whole bottle so we aren't tied together, and on long deco hangs, if you're that concerned either put a 2nd second stage on there, or bring a buddy bottle....
Nomad XT Sidemount System | Dive Rite
this is more versatile and less expensive than the alpha-delta system, it is one rig that I personally have dove with singles, doubles, sidemount, and CCR and it does all of them quite well believe it or not
The z-system to me is a regulator configuration, and that is what I was referring to being more expensive with a cost that is not recoverable unless you play the unfair game of dedicated regulators for all systems.
The z-system is only consistent across open circuit, not all diving, it is NOT consistent with CCR, so please don't say that it is anymore. It exists to make sidemount donation protocol consistent with backmount donation protocol, and if you try to stretch it, you can say it benefits when there is an issue with decompression gases.
and I do dive different systems regularly
Single tank for me is mostly in a double hose regulator where my donation protocol is the same as on CCR with the long hose around my neck. Protocol for that is get off the loop and donate the long hose from my right shoulder d-ring.
Twinsets is standard DIR style primary donate from the 7' hose
Single tank sidemount is the same as backmount
Twin tank sidemount is long hose always and if I see someone coming at me, then I switch to the long hose to donate before they get there
CCR is the RB80 protocol with coming off of the loop to unhook the long hose and then getting back on the loop.
Any time I have a stage or deco bottle that I am breathing, I will donate the hose in my mouth.
Keeping those protocols separate is not that difficult and the only thing the z-system would do for me is allow me to not have to switch to the long hose in sidemount *which is no different than the CCR donation protocol if you think about it*, and allow me to share gas from stage/deco bottles. Realistically if I'm on a stage bottle, I want to just give him the whole bottle so we aren't tied together, and on long deco hangs, if you're that concerned either put a 2nd second stage on there, or bring a buddy bottle....
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