Need Video Editing Advice

[howard4113]

I'd like to produce DVD's with the best quality possible and I need some advice. Here's what I have been doing:

1. Capture to DV AVI file.

2. Assemble video with filters applied + music.... into chapters and produce each chapter as MPG or AVI using Ulead / Elements .....

3. Insert chapters into a Sonic MyDVD project and burn.

I like this methodology as it allows me to break a DVD down into manageable segments (chapters) and produce those independent of the other chapters.

Somewhere along the line I'm losing image quality. Perhaps MyDVD is reconverting the MPG files? I DO realize that every process that converts between formats (DV->MPG2...) or manipulates pixels degrades image quality.

I decided to run a test to compare the output to the original tape. I've got a new 60" HD LCD tv that lets me run both sources side by side. For this test, I use unfiltered DV-AVI's as chapters and use the highest quality setting for DVD output. I've discovered that the output from MyDVD is clearly inferior. The Ulead DVD is almost indistinguishable from the original tape. Given this, I wonder how other video editors would do in a similar test?

I'm thinking of getting a new editing package. I don't know if the newest Ulead software gives me the flexibility I'd like such as assembling files into chapters as MPG and then burning a DVD without using each AVI file as a chapter. I've been using VS6 as it is the only editing package that will capture from my JVC DV camcorder. Pinnacle, ArtSoft, Adobe.... will not. If I upgrade to Ulead VS8, I'd like to know that the DV driver will work.

I'm wondering if Pinnacle or Adobe Elements supports producing to MPG2 and then building DVD chapters from the MPG's without reprocessing (transcoding) the video and reducing quality? The Ulead software seems to be much faster than Sonic in this process. Sonic wants to transcode even if your source is already MPG2. I'm also inclined towards Pinnacle and Adobe as they support image de-shake (Adobe plug-in).
Any comments you'd care to share on project methodology and DVD quality ( especially MPG2 -> DVD for Adobe Elements) would be greatly appreciated.

Mark

 

[ronrosa]

Sonic wants to transcode even if your source is already MPG2.

Mark

You should try a different DVD authoring software package. Ulead DVD Movie Factory is an inexpensive easy to use package that lets you decide whether or not to re-render (transcode).

 

[ChrisA]

I'd like to produce DVD's with the best quality possible and I need some advice. Here's what I have been doing:

1. Capture to DV AVI file.

2. Assemble video with filters applied + music.... into chapters and produce each chapter as MPG or AVI using Ulead / Elements .....

3. Insert chapters into a Sonic MyDVD project and burn.and DVD quality ( especially MPG2 -> DVD for Adobe Elements) would be greatly appreciated.

Mark

I think for best quality you want to capture the DV into the computer and leave it there in DV format. You can use .AVI or .MOV it doesn't matter those formats are just containers. (so far this matches your step #1.)

When you edit most editors don't touch the video file. They just creat an "edit list" that points to frame numbers inside the file you saved as step one. Editing just changes this file. So far no quality is lost

The last step is to "render" which means to apply the "edit list" to the DV file and create a second video file. I think the key here is to make sure the second video file is created in DV format. This way many of the frames will simply be copied. In the DV format each frame stands alone. There are no "key frames" or differences. DV is just a string of independent still images. Of course the renderring process will need to do more then a simple copy if any effects are used. There _are_ differences in redering engines. Some use floating point and some use quicker methods. A good editor should allow you to spedify the output format

The final step is to mpeg encode the DV. Here is wherether are huge differences. There are "professional level" encoders that assume the user knows aout and how to "tweek" a hundred different parametrs and there are consummer level encoders that just have an "OK" botton and default everyrthing. The more shophisticated encoders let you adjust the encoded bit rate so you can either squeeze a long movie ont the disk or use more bits to mmake a sharpper picture of a short video by using all of the disk. This can even be an iterative process where you encode the video then watch it and see how big it is and then tune the parametrs untill you have the quality and file sizes you like. The mpeg format allows much flexibility. I think you need to find an encoder that suits your taste. I don't use MS Windows so I can't recommend one for you. Look for software that splits up rendring from encoding and gives you control over each process.

On the audio side there are many MP3 encoders. The one I use is called "lame" like video encoding there are a lot of controls you can read about them here http://lame.sourceforge.net/USAGE. video encoding is much worse.... Depends on how much control you want and how much you are willing to study. For most peole a single "make DVD" button is enough and they are happy to have all the detail hidden

 

[getwet2]

I've been using Pinnacle lately and really like it. I used both the Ulead trials and the Pinnacle trials from their websites before deciding which one to go with, I went with Pinnacle.

I have a question for you, how many hours of video are you trying to put on to one disc? This might be where the quality loss is coming from. One other question, why won't Pinnacle capture video from your JVC?

Here's what I do but I've got lots of hard drive space so it might not work for you. If you don't have enough hard drive space just download the amount of video that you can work with at one time.

I download the whole video into a file on the computer and edit the whole thing how I want it, complete with all the transitions. Usually it's too long to fit on one disc so I end up having to split it up. I would rather have high quality so I try to keep it to 1 hour per disc, disc's are cheap.

To split it:
I see how long the completed video is and decide how I want to split it up. I then save the finished video as another file so that I now have 2 files that are the same except for what they are called. I usually just add Disc #1,2 etc. to the end of the original file name. If you are going to require 3 disc's, save a third file as well at this time if you want or you can save another one later before you chop it up for the second disc.

I work with the first file and cut out what's not going to fit and then make up my menus and chapters complete with the music for them at this time. When you are finished you can either burn this disc or save it and go on to the next disc and save the burning until the very end, it really doesn't matter. Burning the disc takes a while as it has to render the video and this is where it's converted into the MPEG format.

For the next disc, I open up the second file and cut out what's not required and now make up the menus etc. for this disc.

If you have 3 disc's, open up the third file and do the same as you did with the first 2 disc's.

I don't know if this is the best way to do it but it works for me. Doing it this way lets me get all the video onto the computer so it's there when I want to work on it, I don't have to stop editting because I've ran out of video to work with. It let's me see how long the entire video is going to be when it's finished, which let's me know how to split it up for the disc's required.

Sometimes you find that where you need to split the video is right in the middle of a series of scenes that should not be split between disc's, so one disc might have to be shorter then the other but you can solve this when you come across it. If it's just a couple of minutes too long you can leave it in and choose the "Auto" setting for disc length when using Pinnacle. This will drop the quality down a little bit so you might have say....95% quality instead of 100% but you probably won't notice this little bit of difference.

I'm not an expert and if anybody out there has any tips or suggestions for me please let me know, I seem to find something new to try out with every disc I make, it's not as much fun as diving but it sure does pass the time away!

I hope this helps you out!

 

[Rick Inman]

Here's my .02. The bottom line on DVD quality is the transcoding software. IMO, the Canopus Procoder is the best bang for the buck out there. Here's the link:
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ProCoder2/pm_procoder2.asp
The next step up brings the price into the 10K+ range That's a WIDE gap.
I shoot in DV, capture via firewire, edit, do a single dual-pass Mastering Quality to MPEG, author in DVDLab, and my final result is as good as DVD gets without going to film and Hollywood budget mastering. Plus it's fast. On my Dual Zeon 3.0 computer, I can do a dual pass render of a one hour video in about 45 mins. On my slower system (dual AMD 2.0s) it takes about 1:10.

 

[ronrosa]

I'd like to produce DVD's with the best quality possible and I need some advice. Here's what I have been doing:

1. Capture to DV AVI file.

2. Assemble video with filters applied + music.... into chapters and produce each chapter as MPG or AVI using Ulead / Elements .....

3. Insert chapters into a Sonic MyDVD project and burn.

...

The Ulead DVD is almost indistinguishable from the original tape.

...
Mark

So far, many people are suggesting new editing software or rendering program. This can be an expensive and learning curve intensive option.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this.

I could be wrong, but it reads to me that his problem isn't the 1st generation mpeg2 file, but the re-generation that his DVD authoring program, Sonic MyDVD, is performing.

Basic DVD authoring software is cheap. The one that came with my PC did what Sonic is doing. It re-rendered my video even though it was already in mpeg2 format that Vegas Video created. The result was a very poor DVD. I spent $30 on Ulead DVD Movie Factory and Ulead allowed me to turn the re-render off. The result was a very good DVD.

Howard, can you clarify ? Is the problem your authoring software, Sonic ? Or is it your rendering software Ulead ?

 

[howard4113]

So far, many people are suggesting new editing software .
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this....
I could be wrong, but it reads to me that his problem isn't the 1st generation mpeg2 file, but the re-generation that his DVD authoring program, Sonic MyDVD, is performing. ............
Howard, can you clarify ? Is the problem your authoring software, Sonic ? Or is it your rendering software Ulead ?

Ronrosa,

I think the problem is the Sonic MyDVD software. As you suggest, it is probably re-generating the mpg2 unnecessarily. I've read elsewhere that the Sonic mpg2 codec renders poor quality DVD's. Twice baked is a killer. So I AM looking for new DVD authoring software and I'm also investigating best practices for editing as well -- and considering new editing software with that goal in mind.

I don't know if I put my questions as clearly as I could:

1. I'm wondering if anyone has done a one-to one comparison of Pinnacle and Adobe against the original source to check output quality - INDEPENDENT of any processing at all (DV-Avi -> DVD) using supplied DVD authoring tools. Yes there is an implied conversion to mpg2 and yes I'm using highest quality (not fit to DVD option). I already have determined that Sonic MyDVD quality sucks and that Ulead is very acceptable.

2. I'd like to compose chapters from the DV-Avi's and produce them as either mpg2 or DV-Avi. Again I realize that conversion to mpg2 results in re-generation and re-compression and that the quality of the mpg2 is a result of the codec used in the conversion. If the chapters get re-generated during the DVD authoring process, mpg2 is probably a bad idea. DV-Avi would be better as long as the only editing is trimming. Otherwise, the video is de-compressed, fitered (color corrected....) and then re-compressed.

3. I'd like to assemble the chapters -- using the chapters as DVD chapters in the table of contents and burn them to DVD. Yes - this results in a translation to mpg2 if the chapters are in DV-Avi format - but does the authoring software (Pinnacle, Adobe) re-gen mpgs if the source is already mpg2?

Last night I downloaded Ulead VS8 (trial) to try the DVD authoring. It looks like it may fit the bill - although I don't think it will do #2 the way I want. It may be fast enough to handle a large project ( and hour or so of 20-30 sec clips) without breaking into chapters, and you can select which clips are used as DVD chapter markers on the DVD table of contents.

Thanks for all the replies -- keep the comments coming!

Mark

 

[RickSp]

The problem is that without having the same software and the same system it is hard to get an idea where the problem lies. Obviously there is a software problem, but it is hard to say which set of software is screwing up.

Here is one thing that I would definately check. If you are encoding the file into mpg2 before pulling it into MyDVD, compare the quality of the mpg2 file before the authoring software has a chance to mess with it.

Play the mpg2 file on whatever player you like (Windows, Real. All DVD player software that I am familiar with also can play mpg2 files. You may have to poke around to find how to set it up, but every player I know will let you do it.)

Then compare on the same player the mpg2 file before and after encoding in the DVD authoring software. If they both look about the same and neither is great, then the problem is the software that encoded the mpg2.

If the original mpg2 looks better than the DVD version then the probem is the authoring software.

If your problem is the authorijg software, which would be my guess, there are a couple of reltively inexpensive alternatives. I edit in Sony Vegas then author in their DVD Architect. This might be more than what you need but you might consider their Movie Studio +DVD which sells for around $100. Another good alternative is the TMPGEnc DVD Author 1.6 which is very powerful and can be downloaded for $68.