New Dive Club (Phoenix, AZ) Discussion

[shark.byte.usa]

Hold on.. Hold on... Hold on

I had a few minutes to let divelizard (wish I knew his/her name) comments sink in.

How is your liability lessoned by informal group diving? Once you go pro aren't you a pro everytime your in the water. I would think, correct me if I'm wrong, but diving under the umbrella of a 501(c)7 corporation with liability waivers signed by members and guests would certainly be safer for you from a liability standpoint than diving in informal groups. In both cases your not insured if your an SSI DC/Instructor, but in this case at least you have a couple levels of proctection.

Maybe my thinking is skewed by some unknown. maybe I just don't get it. Just thinking outloud.

-Garrett

 

[krcollins]

Edit: Took out my apology cuz I re-read my 1st reply and I thought I was polite! Maybe you could lighten up a bit too.

Garrett,

No offense was intendend. Lets put it behind us. I was mostly concerned about liability issues and thought that a non-organized informal club with the majority of the discussion taking place on this forum with a few of us just showing up at the lake for a few dives and possibly some burgers on the grill afterwards might be something to consider. I think this would build a solid social and diving network without the hassle of incorporating the club, setting up officers and the associated risk that would go along with that.

However organized dive clubs are done. He is a link to a club that I almost joined when I lived in Seattle. http://www.mossbaydiveclub.org/ Work relocaton to AZ killed that. Note the liability release protects the club from the member, assigns, heirs, and just about everybody else. http://www.mossbaydiveclub.org/xMBD_Docs/AppnRelease.pdf (Hope that link works. If not you can find it by clicking on Membership>Club Info>Application Form and Libility Release) Seems to cover dive professionals as well. Not sure if this would fly in AZ but could be a good base to start from.

 

[divelizard]

Your liability is no less either way. If you are set up as an orginization, you provide a much bigger target. Even under the umbrella, defending yourself can get costly. Lawyers tend to sue everybody and see what falls out at the end. Even when they are not sure that the will win. Somebody is paying them and that is all they are really concerned about, generally speaking.

I guess my question is, are there any benifits to being structured? Or is it really just fine the way that is is now?

We all seem to communicate very well on the board. We can just post when we want ot go out. Be it diving or a bbq or social activity. What do you think?

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Your liability is no less either way. If you are set up as an orginization, you provide a much bigger target. Even under the umbrella, defending yourself can get costly. Lawyers tend to sue everybody and see what falls out at the end. Even when they are not sure that the will win. Somebody is paying them and that is all they are really concerned about, generally speaking.

I think I've already posted my opinion on this previously and quite frankly it's giving me a headache. No offense, if you like you can go back a page or two and read my opinion.

I guess my question is, are there any benifits to being structured?

I can think of quite a few, can you not think of any?

Or is it really just fine the way that is is now?

That's a subjective question. Do I think it's fine the way it is now? NO, If I thought so, based on my opinion, feedback from others and recent posts, I wouldn't have started the thread.

We can just post when we want ot go out. Be it diving or a bbq or social activity. What do you think?

Well that's pretty much what we've been doing for the last several months. I think most people like outings more when they are organized, scheduled & can be depended upon. Our most successful ventures have had this commonality, another example as scubajcf pointed out the Thursday Night Dive had 40 people show up one night. Why? I think because people knew about it, knew where it was, it was scheduled and they knew someone would be there.

A club, IF it is formed, is not going to take the place of posts like, "Hey anybody want to dive on Sunday?". Personally I see it filling a void. And IF it's formed it's not like anyone's going to have a gun to your or anybody elses head to join. The "informal" stuff will still be here.

On a seperate note if your concerned about professional liability issues outside of your shops activities, you should join the I2I forum and discuss it with other professionals. I think it could be beneficial to you based upon the little knowledge I have.

-Garrett

 

[divelizard]

I think maybe my thoughts are being a tad misunderstood. I'm not against the club forming or joining. My goal was to just throw out some food for thought. The liability issue came up and it is a real and valid issue based on the society we live in. I'm definitely not out to put down anybodys ideas. I apologize if that is how it was taken.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Liability is an issue for dive professionals regardless of activity. If someone wants to sue, they will. Even if I go on a dive boat, show my blue card and never mention that I have a black card, I can be held liable. If someone finds out somehow, or happens to know I have a black card, they could decide to name me in a suit. Even at informal gatherings, if someone posts a "Let's go to San Carlos next month" and people show up, the "organizer" can be named in a suit. Basically, if you just think about the get together and don't even show up, you can be named in a suit. Okay, the last one is a joke, but you get what I'm saying. Let's stop being afraid of the lawyers. Let's get out there and dive. I've got insurance that covers me when I'm teaching. It doesn't really cover me when I'm out on fun dives, but I can still be named. Does that mean I should only dive solo? No, I'm still going on trips, and I'm not going to worry about it. BTW, Garrett, that shop that was sued back east was a private, run out of the basement shop. An independent instructor that happened to sell some gear. Not a whole lot of money to be had there!

Desert Tortoise Dive Club (if your fat & slow and you know it clap your hands actually I kindof like it) - my favorite so far
Scorpion Scuba - Dive Club - not so sure
Valley of the Sun Dive Club - not a big fan of the valley of the sun thing, besides I'm in Tucson
Monsoon Divers(? I kindof like the Monsoon part) - I like, but it reminds me of the Monsoon Wedding movie too much
Desert Rat Dive Club (kindof been done) - Desert Rat has been done

I still haven't thought of one. It usually takes a few days for the creativity to show itself.

 

[booth22]

How about Sol Divers? or if you want to keep "AZ" in the name, Azul Divers. The wife suggests Desert Divers...

 

[shark.byte.usa]

I think maybe my thoughts are being a tad misunderstood. I'm not against the club forming or joining. My goal was to just throw out some food for thought. The liability issue came up and it is a real and valid issue based on the society we live in. I'm definitely not out to put down anybodys ideas. I apologize if that is how it was taken.

I didn't take it that way, no need to apologize, there is rarely a need to apologize on Scubaboard, I agree liability it is a real issue , even more so for pros, I guess that's the added risk you take for going that route. All we can do is minimize the liability risks to officers and members the best we can, noone will write an insurance policy for a scuba club, that is the conclusion I've come to after 2 days of surfing the net and making calls, so that's out. So we can either follow the framework of other successful clubs or not. That's pretty much what it comes down to, either we can scare ourselves into chucking the whole idea for fear of lawyers or move forward and try something new.

My two favorites to this point are:
Desert Tortoise Dive Club
Sol Divers (a google search finds a LDS in the Canary Islands)

Desert Divers is a local LDS (Tuscon)

-Garrett

 

[Reef Man]

Ok....when does it start... sounds like fun!!!

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Well I guess my question is to all of those who've expressed interest, after reading the thread to this point;
Are you still interested?

By my estimation we've have 10-15 show an interest, more than enough to get the ball rolling IMO.

-Garrett