New Jersey woman dead - Key West

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I have seen a DM/Guide chase divers down. But I have a question for the professionals. I often see people overweighted. Really overweighted and they are usually women (or I just notice them more). It always stresses me out when I see someone with that much weight. You see them underwater and their BC is full and they are constantly swimming.

I never really see anyone try to talk them out of so much weight. Is this because:
1.) It doesn't work so why try.
2.) Not your job.
3.)You do try discreetly but they don't listen.
 
I have seen a DM/Guide chase divers down. But I have a question for the professionals. I often see people overweighted. Really overweighted and they are usually women (or I just notice them more). It always stresses me out when I see someone with that much weight. You see them underwater and their BC is full and they are constantly swimming.

I never really see anyone try to talk them out of so much weight. Is this because:
1.) It doesn't work so why try.
2.) Not your job.
3.)You do try discreetly but they don't listen.

It is not always the students fault. Couple years ago I got blown out and went over to Jules to dive. Did not have my solo card so needed to find a buddy. There was a couple. New OW diver. Fairly overweight women. Her instructor. Big strapping dude. They were not doing a class, just a practice session so he said I could tag along. So they descend. But after a couple minutes she floats up and he adds more weight. So they descend again and again she floats back up. So he again adds more weight. Makes some sort of statement about he is a NJ river diver and they need lots of weight to stay down in heavy current. This happens three times. Finally they swim around holding hands. I went off and located things for them to see like lobster, etc.

Clearly when she got down the first time she had enough weight (she did not swim down. She sank down). More than once I have seen crew or instructors add more weight to make their life simpler, namely get diver underwater, as opposed to teaching them how to properly descend.

Few years ago on a cruise boat dive trip had the crew want me to add several pounds more in a configuration I knew I had plenty of weight. I politely declined and the dive went fine.
 
I have seen a number of divers ask other divers about weighting especially those new to a NC dive boat. They are always helped

Swimming all the time is usually not weighting. Even if you are a bit over weighted if you adjust your BCD right you should be able to get neutral. I know I have done it recovering some lost weight pockets. The problem is bad buoyancy skills. Two many OW dives are follow the instructor around. I know that is to get them interested in diving but not the best training. With their permission I have taken some new OW divers on a buoyancy trip in the quarry. We stop often and just get a feel for being neutral. We hoover some. We run in 5 ft of water slowly not touching top or bottom. Does wonders for them. They never did that as part of their training.
 
My mistake, when I reference swimming I mean that constant motion to prevent sinking. Not a forward swimming motion.

I totally understand that there are people out there that need more weight and that there are people who refuse to listen, but not everyone is a pain in the butt right???

I watched a couple on a LOB get their kits ready. When the guys asked how much weight, the wife looked at her husband and he told them 6kg for her. I about choked she was this tiny little gal wearing a skin. They tried to say that was too much and he dismissed them. She was a sinker and when she got caught in a down current the guide had to go save her. It was scary to watch. I do not envy dive professionals when they have to deal with situations like this. It is not their responsibility to save someone from themselves.
 
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I have been on a dive trip when a female diver asked the dive master before the dive how much weight does she need to do the dive. She was a warm water vacation diver with several dozen dives under her belt but had no idea how much weight she needed. She said the last time she dove she used 12#. In a thin wetsuit with an AL80, the dm told her it was too much and to try 8#. She did and was fine.

Point is some divers just don't know. She may very well have been severely over weighted with 14# and a steel 120. Maybe she usually dove an AL80 and was overweighted at 14# but managed and the transition to the steel 120 was too much.
 
Sounds like another sad example of how panic kills divers. Condolences to the family.
 
I use 12lb weight with 5mm full wetsuit & full AL80 tank in saltwater, partly for counter weighting my PLB1 in a camera case that will float if I take it out of my BCD pocket. In freshwater, like in cenote, I will not need the PLB1 and freshwater being lighter than the saltwater will add more negative buoyancy, with the same 5mm full wetsuit, I will only need 6 lbs. The way I test my gear buoyancy is by deflating the air out of BCD, exhaling at the same time and measuring the rate of descent. If I have the proper weight with AL80 tank full, the rate of descent would be about 10 ft/min.
 
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A thread such as this brings awareness to weighing and buoyancy control. A good thing.

It is nice to see that many divers work on this critical dive issue.

Very sad to hear of the lost diver.

Some good is coming from this continuing discussion.
 
I never really see anyone try to talk them out of so much weight. Is this because:
1.) It doesn't work so why try.
2.) Not your job.
3.)You do try discreetly but they don't listen.
1. It does work.
2. It IS our job.
3. Sometimes - discreet or not - they think they know better.

Personally, I'm ALWAYS trying to talk people into dropping some weight. My own non-scientific estimate would that 80% of people diving dive over-weighted. Now if it's just 2 pounds or so, maybe not a big deal. But if it's 10 pounds, oh my. I try to encourage them to do the next dive with 2 pounds less than they're wearing, and see if they can have an empty BC at the end-of-dive safety stop and hold their position without kicking. If they sink, take off 2 more pounds. Keep doing that until you reach a point where you took off 2 pounds too much. (And before anyone scream "uncontrolled ascent!!!" realize your lungs hold roughly 10 pounds of air so just by exhaling a bit and never really filling up your lungs, you can compensate for being under-weighted at the final safety stop.)

It also makes a difference as to whether you're diving warm or cold water. In warm water, assuming you're wearing a skin or light/thin wetsuit, there's very little to compress, so your buoyancy/weight-needed changes little with depth. However, in cold water, you're likely wearing a 7mm with hood and gloves and there are significant buoyancy changes as you descend. Which means if you're over-weighted to start with, you're REALLY over-weighted at depth. In fact, in cold water, I advocate UNDER-weighting yourself a bit because as you descend, the wetsuit compression will compensate for the under-weighting.

The real question is: Why do people over-weight themselves so consistently? And the answer IMHO is it's because we, as an industry, have taught them to dive that way. Back in basic class or on a checkout dive with five or six people already on the bottom, when someone can't descend they aren't told "Hey, let's take 15 minutes to do some really good weight-checking for you." What they're told is, "Throw another 5 pounds in your pocket and let's go." So that becomes their solution to any descent issue. Add another 5 pounds.

People are also lousy at really dumping ALL the air out of their BC. I've seen plenty of folks over the years with air in their BCs struggling at the surface and calling out for more lead. I've said for years "I need more weight!!!" is the cry of the chronically over-inflated.

True story to end with. It's 1988 and I'm diving in Cozumel. GF and I surface . inflate BCs, and wait for boat to come pick us up. Two others from our boat surface right next to us. Guy has his BC fully inflated, is kicking, and can barely keep his head above water.
"How much weight are you wearing?" I ask.
"25 pounds," he gaspingly replies.
"Why so much?" I ask.
"Because that's what I need at home," he says.
"Where's home?" I ask.
"Michigan," he says.
"Do you wear anything there that you're not wearing now?" I ask.
And now there's a pause and you can see he's REALLY pondering this.
"Do you mean a wetsuit?" he asks.
"Yes," I say. "Do you think that makes a difference?"
And again you can see him really pondering, and then you see a light bulb go off over his head as our boat comes by.
"I'll bet it does!!! I'll bet I could take off 2 pounds," and he was very excited about this revelation.
"Maybe even a little more," I suggested.

He came to me at the end of the week and very proudly proclaimed that he was able to drop 8 pounds from what he'd been diving with. I congratulated him and suggested he might even be able to drop a bit more but at least it was a step in the right direction.

- Ken
 
Article says that she was reportedly an experienced diver with over a 100 previous dives.
At 100 dives you are just "really" learning what you doing. Additionally if 100 dives are spread over several years that is NOT an experienced diver.

That was my first thought too, I've done 180 dives in three years diving, tons of courses (currently struggling through adv trimix) and the biggest thing I've learnt so far is that 'task loading' is a thing :)

I handle pressure great on the surface but a few mundane tasks underwater can really get me struggling especially under time pressure so I shudder to think what'll happen if it really hits the fan.

I think experience is about putting every conceivable underwater task inside your comfort zone and I've got an awfully long way to go yet.
 

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