New to underwater photography, I'm lost! (Sony RX100 / A6500)

[Pyndle]

Hi everyone!

I would like to invest in some gear to take underwater pictures and I have a few questions.

I'm travelling for a long period so size and weight matter, I don't want to carry 5kg of strobes/domes etc.
I would like to be able to take both macro and wide angle shots during a same dive. I know I'll have to compromise on quality but I'd like to know how and to what extent (see questions below).

I will buy an A6500 for land photography anyways (with a 12mm, a 16-50mm and a zoom lense). The camera will be insured if my case is defective and floods the camera.

- Is it enough if I buy a 200$ case like the seafrogs or is it really worth upgrading to $1000+ case? What would be the difference?

- What's the highest increase in quality (for pictures), getting a wet lense or a strobe? Same question between a wide angle wet lense and a macro wet lense, is there one that will be a significantly better increase in quality vs just the 16-50 alone ? Ideally I want one lense for each + 2 strobes but it will be too big to travel with, and I don't know if I should get just one of these items, or none at all and I'll still be able to have decent shots

- Will the quality of the A6500 + 16-50mm be much better than an RX100 iii or iv + a $200 case? Will the RX100 offer more flexibility in terms of macro / wide angle combinations? I like the idea of having two cameras and I saw that the RX100 is very reputable for diving. Also (depending on the question above), maybe the RX100 is better for a beginner without extra lenses/strobes ?

- Any other advice on what gear I could get that is not too big and can give me very good looking pictures of my dives?

Many thanks!

 

[mi000ke]

I just did my first underwater photography on my last dive trip a few months ago. So, as a newbie myself (but with a lot of experience doing land photography), here are some issues that came up. First, if you have never tried underwater photography, you might find that concentrating on shooting photos while trying to maintain good diving form (buoyancy, trim, etc.) can be a challenge. I have pretty good control over my movement in water, but it all went out the window on my first couple of dives with the camera. I was so focused (excuse the pun) on shooting that I forgot I was diving and lost control of my buoyancy, trim, and movement. If you have the time, you might want to practice just holding the camera while diving on your first dive just to get used to dealing with both (OK, I know you won't want to waste any shots pretending to shoot, but just be aware of the issue). Next, you want to be absolutely familiar with operating whatever equipment you end up using before your first dive so that you are not using brain cycles to figure out your camera as you float to the surface or crash into the reef. I used a camera that I've had for years, and even practiced with it in the housing on land a bit, but still had to concentrate on the camera housing buttons once underwater, and it took my attention away from control of my diving motion. So practice a lot. To keep it simple for my initial dives, I decided to use automatic settings (aperture priority, auto ISO) and ambient light. And this worked well down to about 50' or so. I shoot RAW format and have a lot of photo editing software so was able to get half decent results after working on the photos for a while. I strongly recommend shooting RAW no matter what. This has helped me to save/enhance hundreds of photos over the years that would have been trashed if shot in jpg. And lastly, I did not want to make a big financial commitment before trying out UW photography for the first time, so rather than spending $1500 for a housing for my 5D and whatever for strobes, I picked up a $200 housing for an old Powershot S110 I had lying around the house. And I figured if did something stupid and flooded the housing I wouldn't lose much. And here is the very first underwater photo I took (not great - it looks a bit sharper and punchier on my computer - but I was pretty happy with it, all things considered):

 

[Pyndle]

Many thanks for your feedback, that's helpful.

I know that buoyancy might be an issue, I'll try to focus hard on it but I used to film a lot with a gopro, I know I'm quite good at checking my computer no matter what I'm filming and how exciting it is. But from the little experience I have, everytime I take clients out with gopros they'd do stupid stuff (like follow a turtle and end up 10m above the rest of the group).

Also on the value of the gear, I'm gonna insure everything. I just don't want to risk it (and of course there is a great risk as a newbe that I'll mess something up).

My question was rather, is there something simple (and not too big/heavy) that I can buy that will multiply the quality of my pictures even on day 1, or should I just go with cheap housing and an A6500 because anything else (strobes, wet lenses etc.) will bring me a 10% increase in quality and a lot of hassle to get used to using it?
And in that same idea, would a point and shoot like the RX100 get me better shots than my (future) A6500 with a 16-50mm and entry level housing? (because it's easier to control etc.).

I'm not a pro but I definitely have experience with manual settings on DSLR though (on land), so that's something I don't have to learn again

 

[Hoag]

If I were in your position, I would seriously look at the A6500 with a Fantasea housing. It has had very good reviews and may provide a high quality image in a cost effective package. Although there are those who would disagree, I don't think that putting a camera into a cheap housing would serve you best. Also, based on your comments, a Nauticam or Aquatica housing may not be the be most effective use of your money.

If you want to shoot wide angle, then the ideal solution is to use two strobes. It can be done with a single strobe, but the entire image may not be lit properly and/or the light from a single strobe may be very directional. Since photography is all about light, you will be better off getting a strobe (a simple TTL one will work fine) that a wet lens. The 16-50mm kit lens is amazingly versatile underwater.

Since you want something simple, I would advise you to use the kit (16-50mm PZ OSS) lens underwater. It is not the perfect solution, but it will give good results and will allow everything from wide angle to close up. As for strobes, something small and TTL would be your best option. I have used Sea & Sea YS-03 strobes recently and for the most part, I was happy with the results I got. I have to say though that one of my strobes failed on the first dive and I shot the rest of the week with a single strobe. Even with a single strobe, I got results that I am happy with.

I recently did a trip to the Bahamas and I used a Sony A6000 and a single Sea & Sea YS-03 strobe. Here are some of the shots that I took with the kit lens:

Close up at/near 50mm:




Wide Angle at/near 16mm:





One final thought ... here is a thread that shows the Sony A6500 and the Fantasea housing to give you an idea of the size.

 

[tursiops]

Shooting without a strobe or other artificial light is really frustrating. If you are shallow, and the water is clear, and the sun is high, you can do OK. Yes, you can get pictures, and Yes, you can try all sorts of tricks with reddish filters and post-processing, but it is still frustrating. For video, it is even more important, since post-processing is not as easy. You want to shoot both wideangle and macro.

Bringing your own light with you allows you much more freedom and greatly enhances the colors and sharpness of the pictures. For wideangle pix, your lighting is more difficult; you still need light, but it has to cover a much larger area, so the light has to be much stronger. It is easier (and cheaper) to get a strong light with a strobe than with video lights. For macro, lighting is easier because you are closer so the light does not need to be so strong.

So, avoid the cheap housings, for several reasons: (1) they are not as robust; (2) they usually do not allow (easy) access to all the camera functions; and (3) they often make it more difficult to attach accessories, like wet lenses. Fantasea is a decent housing. SeaFrog less so.

Strobe or video light? Strobe, unless you are doing only video and macro stills.
One or two? You can do a LOT with one strobe, you may want a diffuser to mitigate sharp shadows. With video lights, two or more, to get the total power you need. The little Inon S2000 strobe is good.

Money on wet lenses vs lighting systems? Light trumps wet lenses. There are lots of good pix to take with your 16-50!

 

[ScubaJill]

I bought the a5000 used and meikon housing. I have a long way to go in terms of underwater photography, so it seemed to be a good initial investment as the system offered more advanced capabilities than my skills at the time - and my current skills. I don't regret spending less money at all. I'm getting some fantastic shots and while I need to use Photoshop for some photos (lighting and backscatter), I'm able to get all the shots I want such as macro, moving, wide angle, artistic effects, etc. I'll continue to use this kit for at least another 200 dives.

 

[outofofficebrb]

Hi, @Pyndle.

Beware....long post ahead!

I recently got into underwater photography after being comfortable topside with manual. I have the RX100 and can speak to that way more than the A6500. I can tell you that I easily pack 5kg of gear wiith my RX100; however, I have 2 strobes, a wide angle lens with the dome port, a macro lens, a few sets of strobe and camera batteries with their respective chargers, arms and floats, and spare parts and o-rings. Not having the wide angle lens and/or dome port will eliminate a few pounds. It's a bit of a commitment in that regard.

As for shooting wide angle and macro on the same dive, there are a few ways to look at this.

• You can shoot wide angle in just the housing as is or you can get a wide angle lens. Add a dome port in and you get even wider. It allows you to be closer to your subject while capturing a very wide scene which eliminates or minimizes backscatter. The further you are from your subject, the more sediment in the water is between you and your subject and the more likelihood of capturing that backscatter. Additionally, color drops off significantly with distance, even with strobes. You can get strobes with a higher guide number so that they are more powerful but in general, being closer to your subject is ideal. Below is a great example that I found when I was shopping for equipment and deciding on wide angle lenses with dome ports. In the picture below, the top left photo shows the photographer taking a photo without a wet lens or dome port.The top right photo shows the addition of a wet lens. The bottom left shows the addition of a wet lens with dome port. All the photos are taken from the same distance. As you can see, you are able to capture a much wider scene without having to back up or lose color as strobe lighting falls off.
  
• I don't bother with shooting wide angle and macro on the same dive if I have to do a lens switch. It's a hassle - mounting the lens or storing it - and possibly losing it or damaging it when you do the switch. I went muck diving recently and I have a macro lens that is on a flip mount so that allowed me to shoot macro and with the housing as-is. I did that and it was fine. Would I switch back and forth between a wide angle lens with or without a dome port and macro on the same dive? Absolutely not. There are some people that will tell you that it's not practical or that you should just commit to one or the other for a particular dive. I suggest that if you go this route, don't get a macro lens that you have to screw and unscrew. Flip it out of the way and don't worry about losing anything. I was on a trip recently and I could tell when my dive buddy was shooting macro as opposed to regular when I heard the squeaking of the threads when he put the macro lens on.

Some of the benefits of the more expensive housings are the build quality and the functions and features as well as depth ratings. Some housings can go to 130ft while others can go to 300ft. Some allow you to use some functions but not all of the camera while others give you full use of the camera because you have access to all the controls and buttons as if it were not in a housing. Polycarbonate vs machined aluminum, etc. There are some housings that come with a leak detector alarm so when it senses moisture, it goes off. You can then tilt your camera a down so that water pools towards the lens and and preserve the camera body as you end the dive. When you pair this with a vacuum valve with a visual confirmation that you have a seal, it's a solid system together. Nauticam's is color coded. Green means you have a seal, yellow means your vacuum seal is lower than it was before and may be compromised so you should check, and red is you no longer have a vacuum seal. If you get a yellow, you probably aren't flooded yet but that would be a good indicator you should end your dive and surface to look into it before it actually goes red AND you hear the water alarm.

You'll have to weigh the cost/benefits of a housing. If you don't dive very often it may be hard to justify a more expensive housing. I dive 2-3 times a year in 2-3 week stints, 30-50 dives at a time. I wanted something that would last and I wanted peace of mind because there is already so much to worry about before splashing in the water so I opted for the higher end housing. I am very glad I made the investment into Nauticam because it is so easy to use and gives me such peace of mind. I love it, especially when I have to open it up on a day boat that might not have camera facilities (air gun, tables, dunk tanks, etc.).! I am still very diligent with my o-rings on the housing regardless of having the system. I still do have insurance on it which would cover flooding. You'll have to think about the lens options for the A6500 and think about how that will affect your housing options. It's also one more thing to have to worry about and carry before, during, and after dives from a luggage and maintenance standpoint.

If you could only pick between a wet lens and a strobe, I would definitely get the strobe. 2 is ideal. In the beginning, you may want to leave the strobe on auto. With experience, you can use manual to get the right strobe power and exposures. If you are deciding between buying a wide angle wet lens and a macro lens and only plan on getting 1 for now, I would probably suggest that you get a macro lens. You will notice a much bigger difference in what you can shoot with a macro wet lens vs what you can shoot without it because of minimum focus distances. Without a wide angle lens, you will still be able to shoot larger scenes, you will just have to be further away from the subject. However, with macro, if you don't have the macro lens, you won't be able to capture the detail that you may be looking for.

@mi000ke brought up some great points and I think it's important to go with a camera you are comfortable with. I could use the RX100IV in my sleep from the extensive use I had with it on land while traveling. (So light and compact!)

I'm including some photos below in case you find it helpful. Macro photos are first, wide angles are toward the bottom. I do not have any photos without any wet lens on, unfortunately, so I can't give you a comparison of that. Feel free to PM me as well!

Below is an example of an emperor shrimp on a very large sea cucumber that I took. You can see the bumps on the cucumber. The shrimp itself , according to Wikipedia, is about 4 millimetres (0.16 in) to 7.6 millimetres (0.30 in). I would not have been able to capture this detail without the macro lens. (This was using a Nauticam CMC on a RX100IV with Sea & Sea YS-D2 strobes.) I included a few other macro shots. At the bottom are some examples of wide angle shots with the wide angle wet lens + dome port.

Goby and crab on whip coral.

The eel stirred up a bit of sand as he was coming out which is showing up as backscatter in this photo. I was trying to focus on his eyes but didn't want to get any closer with those teeth so I decided to take a photo of his teeth instead.

Juvenile anemone fish on a carpet anemone. He was a tiny little dude!

Here are some wide angle photos using the Inon UWL-H100 with dome port on the RX100IV.

 

[Hoag]

@outofofficebrb outstanding images! Well done.

@Pyndle although it is (by their own admission) a long post, @outofofficebrb has given you some great advice.

 

[Pyndle]

Wow, thanks a lot for the answers guys, they're very very helpful!!! And great pictures indeed

I think I'm pretty clear on a few things thanks to you now. I'm definitely not getting a wide angle wet lense / dome. I'm definitely getting a strobe (just one for now). Maybe getting a macro lense, I really love macro shots (just spent 2 weeks in Lembeh looking at amazing macro life, I got convinced).

As for the RX100 vs A6500, I think I need to think a bit more about it and try the two cameras (even on land). The larger sensor on the A6500 might help me get more light and better shots underwater, even if slightly more complex to handle (not sure that's even true though). I wish I could see similar pictures underwater taken with both just to compare.

One last question, apologies if it's a stupid one, but do housing impact the quality of the shots? I tend to think they do since you're putting glass between your camera and your subject, but just want to confirm. Maybe I should but flooding doesn't really concern me, I will take insurance anyways and I have the impression that it doesn't happen all of a sudden. Even entry price housings have sensors, the water gets in very slowly (unless your just broke into parts) so just need to come up relatively quickly and it should be fine. I have seen drones falling in the sea and still work fine after two days of drying in a rice bag, camera should be the same no?

 

[Hoag]

Before you go any further, please treat everything in this post as my opinion. I am not in any way trying to state it as facts.

(This will be a long post as well.)

Let's look at the cameras first. For an underwater camera, there are a few things that you are going to want to have. These would include the ability to shoot manually (You might not use this right away, but before long you will want the flexibility that it gives you.), the ability to shoot RAW, the ability to select (and change) your white balance, and a good sensor. Both of the two cameras that you are considering meet all of those requirements. In some cases, one camera might do it better or easier than the other, but all of the basics are met by both cameras. It is important to note that the A6500 has a 24MP APS-C sensor and the RX100 has a 20.1MP 1 inch sensor. In theory, this will mean that the A6500 will give a slightly better image with a little more Dynamic Range (the range from the darkest black displayed to the brightest white displayed without clipping any of the colours). In practice, Sony makes extremely good sensors and unless you plan on blowing your images up to huge prints or cropping down to just a tiny portion of the image either camera will likely meet your needs. One advantage that the RX100V has is that it is small and even when traveling with a housing, the entire setup will be significantly easier to travel with than the A6500 will with a housing. The big advantage of the A6500 is that it has interchangeable lenses. If you want to shoot macro, or if you want to shoot wide angle, then you put on the appropriate lens and port and your system is tailored for what you want to shoot. Typically, however, each lens will have a unique port so unless you plan on shooting exclusively with the kit lens, you will have not only the housing, but a few ports as well.

You also asked about the value of expensive housings over lower cost ones.

There are a number of factors that impact on the cost of housings and to a degree, I think that you tend to get what you pay for. Lets look at a few examples:

Housings such as Aquatica or Nauticam are machined out of single block's of aluminum. They are very specifically designed for specific cameras. The ergonomics are exceptional. Every button and every switch is exactly where you would expect it to be. They will often come with integrated moisture detection systems and can accommodate a vacuum seal. They will be depth rated to depths that far exceed the limits of recreational diving. These are high end housings and they are priced accordingly.

Next, let's look at the lower end. Housings such as Meikon or Ikelite tend to be low cost options that while the will protect your camera, may cut back on a few of the refinements. I have heard both good and bad about Meikon, but I am not personally familiar with them, so all I will say is that I have hear enough that they would not be an option that I would use. I do have experience with Ikelite. Their housings are typically a generic polycarbinate block that would fit several different camera types within a certain size range. They then drill the holes and install the controls specific to your camera. This often means that there are less effective linkages and that the controls are not ergonomically located. One advantage of Ikelite housings is that most of them are clear, so you will be able to see immediately if there is any water leaking into the housing. While they will be just as "safe" when it comes to protecting your camera as other housings, they tend to be big, bulky and heavier than other housings for the same camera.

Finally, let's look at the "sweet spot" or the middle ground. There is a housing manufacturer called Fantasea that offers many of the advantages of the higher end housings such as Nauticam while still maintaining a lower price point which is near that of Ikelite. Fantasea housings are polycarbinate housings but they are designed to have wonderful ergonomics. Some models come with integrated leak detectors and can use the vacuum seals made by Nauticam or other brands. As an entry level underwater photographer, I think that this would be an ideal option that you should seriously consider.

If I were you, I would probably lean toward the following system:
Sony RX100V
Fantasea FRX100V Housing
Sea & Sea YS-03 TTL strobe (with fibre optic cable)
a tray & arms to put it all together
and a macro wet lens if money and space (weight) permit

Again, let me stress that this is just my opinion.