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NEW TS Sidemount system

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by bluemed, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. bluemed

    bluemed Master Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: world
    133
    67
    0.5 calories...have another look, I also needed to, hence i am over 40 ;-)
     
  2. bluemed

    bluemed Master Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: world
    133
    67
    Yes kind sir...
     
  3. RayfromTX

    RayfromTX Student Of Gas Mixology Staff Member ScubaBoard Sponsor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Cozumel while the cruise ships are gone
    8,016
    8,052
    One of the main reasons that I see for diving sidemount is the ability to go through tight passages. You are excited about this product. OK I get that. It has been pointed out by many people that dive sidemount that this product is limited by it's inability to allow you to conform to tight passages without getting wedged in by a long hard plate on your back. This isn't an attack on you but it is a criticism of the useful limits of the product. You have systematically pushed back against the other posters in this thread. You first denied that there was a potential danger and later reluctantly admitted that there might be and took the position that using sidemount in tight passages is somehow an unusual or extreme use of a sidemount system.

    If you want to attack the posters that point out flaws in the design of the product that you are promoting then you can't also claim that you aren't promoting the system and that the other posters are the ones that are not being respectful. You aren't doing any favors for the reputation or acceptance of the product.

    This happens repeatedly on scubaboard. Promoters of a product,(sometimes connected to the product and sometimes just fans) come on scubaboard and sing the praises of a product. If it seems that they are promoting a product,which is allowed on the board within reason, it is risky because the members of scubaboard count in their ranks some of the most knowledgable divers on the planet. The collective wisdom and knowledge here is surprising. You really never know when you are talking to the people that are on the cutting edge or perhaps have 40 years of experience or more.

    What typically happens in these threads is that the community sorts out what is right and what is only a sales pitch. They sometimes see spam where it is a legit posting but over time it always seems to get sorted out by the members. When one or more people get defensive or offensive about the concerns raised regarding a product they are likely to draw strong opposition. When they are diplomatic and open minded about the criticisms they get better results. I could give you many examples of this. People have fought their products into a bad place and others have smoothly overcome opposition by calmly explaining things and accepting that they may not know as much as the members of SB.

    I can say for a certainty that nobody knows as much about anything related to diving as the collective knowledge found here so humility is a survival tool.

    Lastly, it helps to have a firm grasp of the reality of what is being said. You can't convince others of a history of what has been said that they know to be false. Also, always remember that what is said is done so without the benefit of tone so it is possible to misinterpret the intention of the a post. I hope this helps. I was in a hurry.
     
  4. tbone1004

    tbone1004 Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Greenville, South Carolina, United States
    18,294
    10,596
    we're going to go with @leadduck being sarcastic and I missed the sarcasm.
    Anyway, for those actually curious, the two divers are clearly seen at 1:55 for silver tanks, and 3:15 for green/yellow as both wearing a weight belt and a backzip drysuit
     
  5. bluemed

    bluemed Master Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: world
    133
    67
    I see your point, you sound like a wise man ;-) if you would go through my profile you would see I didn't start yesterday. Of course I expected this, and I have no problems with people having opinions.I must have said it at least 10 times, I don't know on the "rabbit holes" yet. Since I haven tried this wing myself in this environment, and thats what I always do. Only than, imho, you can have valid opinion.
    I am not here to convince anyone, sidemount without a backplate works fine since I use that and I know that.
    The wing looks great and the footage looks great and the guys that dive it look great, so some proper proper exploration and some of them even claim it has some advantages in confined spaces.I want to know, the wise guys that want to hijack this post towards "rabbit holes" can do their office job, swim around a bit in the weekend and be on scubaboard the whole day long..
    I will be underwater, maybe on back mount or on this system or free diving on a SM without a BP.
    In reality the whole thing got me interested because I would always read you can't sidemount on a BP, it looks horrible, is not streamlined and it doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  6. leadduck

    leadduck Contributor

    379
    239
    In general I like reading the forum but need to be careful about it. An anonymous internet forum can be easily abused for all kinds of false advertising written like customer reviews, but also spreading FUD about the competition in a subversive and organized manner. Secondly, some most knowledgeable divers may be here but they are a small minority and participate infrequently. Many participants are interested in advanced diving topics but have little or no actual experience with it. That doesn't keep some of them from dominating the discussion with strongly held beliefs, that are neither obviously nor entirely wrong, but heavily influenced by marketing and hearsay. So when it comes to products particularly for advanced diving, I don't trust forum posts unless I know who's writing.
     
  7. leadduck

    leadduck Contributor

    379
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    Sorry my mistake, I linked the wrong video and I can't find the one anymore that I meant. Anyway, I don't want to promote backplates for no-mount rabbit holes and I don't think Toddy created his Toddy style concept for this. He wrote in his text that the question about getting stuck with a backplate frequently comes up and that in his experience it's not nearly as bad as people think when they hear about it for the first time. He is a very experienced diver though with some 4,000 cave dives and knows a thing or two about it. I know users of that system in caves (sidemount swimming, not no-mount crawl space) and they see no problem with it.

    Another point to consider (regarding the marketing/advertising topic above): Toddy's setup was not designed as a product but as a concept how to convert BPW gear to sidemount. It's a low-cost DIY solution that works for say 99% of backmount BPW divers going sidemount. You may bet that everyone in the industry trying to sell sidemount gear absolutely hates it, and will immediately confirm you how every sidemount diver wants to crawl into tiniest curved spaces where he'll get stuck with a backplate in places where he just pushed through with his helmet and those bulkier and longer tanks a second earlier.
     
    bluemed likes this.
  8. tbone1004

    tbone1004 Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Greenville, South Carolina, United States
    18,294
    10,596
    @leadduck the second part of your argument became invalid when he developed and commercialized a custom wing and backplate for it which means he now has a financial interest in keeping it alive because he is now in the industry trying to sell sidemount gear
     
  9. leadduck

    leadduck Contributor

    379
    239
    @tbone1004, yes I saw toddystyle.com. I wrote it was not designed as a product; the original description that he published and promoted is about how to build a nice sidemount rig out of your old wing and backplates. Divers liked that, manufacturers didn't.
     
  10. bluemed

    bluemed Master Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: world
    133
    67
    [Q

    Thanks for updating me, I didn't know all this, I know toddy is a very experienced SM diver and has done a lot of exploration, I met the guy, very passionate about his diving and I dived with him. he said he was developing this wing and when I was in the water I found it very interesting..
     

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