Open Water Training at Blue Grotto

[Caveeagle]

I have had these same type divers follow me into Devil's Ear - to the Lips before I had to escort them back to daylight.
They just don't know what they don't know.

Damn! ..back of the ballroom is bad enough. Ignorance is one thing.... but anyone swimming to the Lips without their own lights is lacking in basic survival instincts and has truly earned a Darwin Award.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

anyone swimming to the Lips without their own lights is lacking in basic survival instincts and has truly earned a Darwin Award.

They had no clue, and one light.

 

[Doby45]

They had no clue, and one light.

Which is a violation. Only Cave divers can have lights, the only exception is the Ballroom. They had a clue, because the counter workers in the shop explain this to non-cave divers.

My recollection is that OW divers are not "allowed" to carry lights at Ginnie.

They can only have a light in the Ballroom, they can not take a light over to Little Devil, The Eye or Ear..

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I have thought about this and I think PADI's policy is clear. The PADI instructor manual has this standard, shown in the photo below where the word caves is in yellow.

The question may be implementation and adherence to that standard. Instructors are supposed to follow standards, when they do not they should be reported to PADI.

The 4th Quarter 2001 Training Bulletin further defines this as shown below:
4th Quarter 2001, page 7
“Common Questions
Q. May I take divers through a short swim through or archway during training dives?
A. Yes, there are circumstances when it is OK to do this during PADI training dives.
Although the “General Standards and Procedures Instructor Guide” states, “Do not conduct open water training dives or Discover Scuba Diving experience dives in caves, caverns, under ice or any situation where direct vertical access to the surface is not possible,” it’s within reason to swim with divers under archways or coral/rock formations that are short, very easy to swim through, well lit, open and pose only a very brief overhead obstruction — as might be the case when directing an ascent from a dive with a moored boat overhead.

 

[TotDoc]

Unfortunately, options are limited when wanting to go below 100'. I wind up using Hudson Grotto for a lot of that -- there's a platform at 100' with a descent line to it, and you can hit 135' on the sides if you know where to go.

So just to kick the hornets nest here...if you are hitting 135 at Hudson, you are absolutely under overhead...and given that there is zero natural light down there, technically there is no cavern zone....

That said, I would have no problem using Hudson for deep training, other than the fact that it makes your gear smell like rotten eggs.

 

[kensuf]

So just to kick the hornets nest here...if you are hitting 135 at Hudson, you are absolutely under overhead...and given that there is zero natural light down there, technically there is no cavern zone....

That said, I would have no problem using Hudson for deep training, other than the fact that it makes your gear smell like rotten eggs.

Umm, I guess if you want to split hairs, you may be right. But let's be realistic here, the horizontal penetration doesn't extend beyond 10', and the shape of the basin is more like the walls of a bottle, following the only wall will bring you straight to the surface.

The map is here:

The only course I use the 130' section for is AN/DP -- a course with a physiological overhead already, the pre-reqs to enter are over 75 dives and some technical training, and fully redundant gear.

Now let's get back on the topic of using Blue Grotto for the deep dive in Advanced, or the cavern for OW training. Students in their OW course are, well, not even certified divers (yet). And the pre-reqs for Advanced are typically just being open water certified, so it would likely that the deep dive in Blue Grotto would be their 6th or 7th dive ever. And what about their gear requirements? Basic open-water kit.

Now, let's look at the map of Blue Grotto.

It looks like you have to have approximately 100' horizontal penetration to get to the deep section of Blue Grotto. And you have to go around several obstacles (boulders, rocks, restrictions) to get there.

How is this even similar?

Let's go back to Hudson for a sec (map above). There's a down line and platform at 100' right in the center of the sink. Instructors can easily use that platform to accomplish the deep dive in an Advanced class without ever getting near an overhead, but may prefer to use Blue Grotto.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

the horizontal penetration doesn't extend beyond 10', and the shape of the basin is more like the walls of a bottle, following the only wall will bring you straight to the surface.

If ten feet into the overhead is ok, is 15? 20? Where do we draw the line?

Also when people lose rational thought they do not process the fact that they can follow a slanting/sloping wall out to the surface, they bolt upwards.

From a purely risk management point of view 10 feet into the overhead may as well be 100 feet into the overhead when being deposed or testifying from the witness hot seat in a tort action. Splitting hairs is what lawyers do best.

 

[kensuf]

If ten feet into the overhead is ok, is 15? 20? Where do we draw the line?

Also when people lose rational thought they do not process the fact that they can follow a slanting/sloping wall out to the surface, they bolt upwards.

From a purely risk management point of view 10 feet into the overhead may as well be 100 feet into the overhead when being deposed or testifying from the witness hot seat in a tort action. Splitting hairs is what lawyers do best.

I respect your opinion and will give your point some serious thought.

However, we're still talking about a brand new scuba diver in the lower portion of Blue Grotto versus an experienced diver in an advanced level technical diving course in Hudson.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Let's go back to Hudson for a sec (map above). There's a down line and platform at 100' right in the center of the sink. Instructors can easily use that platform to accomplish the deep dive in an Advanced class without ever getting near an overhead, but may prefer to use Blue Grotto.

Lets get the directions and specifics out to the public on Hudson Grotto and let instructors know. Write it up with details of depths, overhead issues, entry fees and driving directions and we can make it a sticky in the cave forum.

However, we're still talking about a brand new scuba diver in the lower portion of Blue Grotto versus an experienced diver in an advanced level technical diving course in Hudson.

I agree 100% with that asessment, however overhead is overhead in court.

 

[Scott]

Interesting.
So anything beyond 40 feet would be considered an overhead?
We have a local site that is hour glassed shaped and never has anyone brought up it is a overhead environment.