over fill a low pressure steel tank?

[DaleC]

Can someone cite a single instance of an overfilled lp steel rupturing? I won't hold my breath...

This is sort of like asking for proof that falling injures people - silly monkeys, everybody knows it's the sudden stop that hurts.

Do steel tanks rupture, why do they rupture, when is that rupture likely to occur, does turning a LP cylinder into a HP cylinder increase the risk of rupture?
Does buying a used cylinder from someone who admits to violating SOP's for safety increase or decrease the risk that said cylinder will have some defect?
Would such a practice invalidate any and all professional/personal insurance I might hold?

 

[Superlyte27]

Actually, i think it was more like asking, in literally tens of thousands of fills across this country, can anyone cite a fatality from overfilling a steel tank. I can reference 10 Aluminum tank fatalities in Florida alone just since my diving career began. Can anyone in the USA cite a single fatality involving a cave fill of a steel tank....ever?

The point was... it simply doesn't happen, certainly doesn't happen enough to consider the practice dangerous.

 

[PfcAJ]

Just one instance, that's all.

I'm concerned about practical stuff, not some hypothesis that doesn't apply to real life diving. If they failed (even hydro) due to overfilling, I wouldn't do it. But they don't.

 

[PfcAJ]

The al tank thing is real, at least for the old alloy. I think a lot of the al tank failures were I conjunction with a drop, and that's not good for anything.

 

[DaleC]

From Bill High of PSI Inc. Bolding is mine. Full text can be found here: PSI-PCI - Our Obligations




The PSI, Inc. Corporation has done that now for 28 years. With nearly 30,000cylinder inspectors trained for all gas industry users, the explosive rupture rate has declined dramatically. The miss-information among scuba divers however has not decline sufficiently.
So, how do we stop the continuing tragic accidents among scuba divers from ruptured cylinders and how do we cylinder owners more knowledgeable about cylinder safety? A tremendous step in the right direction is for scuba instructors to include cylinder safety in their basic, advanced and specialty scuba classes. To accomplish this, the instructor must learn the facts, not the “hand-me-down myths and outright untruths about high pressure cylinders that circulate in the dive industry.


As part of a scuba diving instructor’s education, the training should include specific cylinder safety instruction. Once both the scuba instructor and the diving community as a whole understands the safety issues relating to the hazardous material they place on their backs, place close to loved ones in their home and stack in the truck of their cars accidents and ridiculous statements by divers will decline.


That’s right, scuba pressurized scuba cylinders are, by law, hazardous material. Overfilled cylinders are illegal, double burst discs are illegal, modifying the cylinder is illegal, and keeping damaged cylinders in service is both unethical and stupid.


Scuba instructors, become educated about cylinder safety. It’s called continuing education. Share that knowledge with your scuba students and resist spouting opinions about diving subjects for which you are not actually an expert.

 

[Wolfie]

" At the time of this writing, the details of that accident are not known but are not relevant to this writing."
Ok I understand saying that the forums are full of myths. but to write about an incident and say that the details are not relevant. WTF? REALLY? Then just shut up until they are relevant. Really? Bill High, of professional scuba inspectors? if the details are not relevant? You are not relevant? You start an organization to help prevent tank "burst" and then when one happens you write an article that about it that states that "the details of that accident are not known but are not relevant" I am beside myself. As a diver I "we" know that we have to rely upon ourselves. it's our nature. Then someone comes along, wether it's PADI, SSI or this PSI "that I never heard of" comes along and gives their Ultimatum of superior being. And says "the details are not known.... and are not relevant." The reason why we are still alive is by relying upon ourselves. Your kind of guidance will kill someone........... I am usually very even keeled in the whole internet forum board thing, but for crying out loud. If you start an organization to help people. Either help them or shut up. And BTW it is very relevant. Especially to someone who Inspects tanks. That means you Bill High.

 

[DaleC]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we should consider who is reading what we post in the public forums and how it may be (mis) interpreted.

 

[redacted]

This is sort of like asking for proof that falling injures people - silly monkeys, everybody knows it's the sudden stop that hurts.

Do steel tanks rupture, why do they rupture, when is that rupture likely to occur, does turning a LP cylinder into a HP cylinder increase the risk of rupture?
Does buying a used cylinder from someone who admits to violating SOP's for safety increase or decrease the risk that said cylinder will have some defect?
Would such a practice invalidate any and all professional/personal insurance I might hold?

Google "Deaths from falls": Deaths from falls - Google Search

Google "Deaths from compressed gas": Deaths from compressed gas - Google Search

Lots of recorded data on deaths from falls. Let us know if you see any on deaths from non-defective scuba cylinder explosions not cause by O@ combustion.

From Bill High of PSI Inc. Bolding is mine. Full text can be found here: PSI-PCI - Our Obligations




The PSI, Inc. Corporation has done that now for 28 years. With nearly 30,000cylinder inspectors trained for all gas industry users, the explosive rupture rate has declined dramatically. The miss-information among scuba divers however has not decline sufficiently.
So, how do we stop the continuing tragic accidents among scuba divers from ruptured cylinders and how do we cylinder owners more knowledgeable about cylinder safety? A tremendous step in the right direction is for scuba instructors to include cylinder safety in their basic, advanced and specialty scuba classes. To accomplish this, the instructor must learn the facts, not the “hand-me-down myths and outright untruths about high pressure cylinders that circulate in the dive industry.


As part of a scuba diving instructor’s education, the training should include specific cylinder safety instruction. Once both the scuba instructor and the diving community as a whole understands the safety issues relating to the hazardous material they place on their backs, place close to loved ones in their home and stack in the truck of their cars accidents and ridiculous statements by divers will decline.


That’s right, scuba pressurized scuba cylinders are, by law, hazardous material. Overfilled cylinders are illegal, double burst discs are illegal, modifying the cylinder is illegal, and keeping damaged cylinders in service is both unethical and stupid.


Scuba instructors, become educated about cylinder safety. It’s called continuing education. Share that knowledge with your scuba students and resist spouting opinions about diving subjects for which you are not actually an expert.

What law makes it illegal for a citizen to do anything they want to a scuba cylinder they own? Or might this be some PSI misinformation?

 

[Wookie]

Google "Deaths from falls": Deaths from falls - Google Search

Google "Deaths from compressed gas": Deaths from compressed gas - Google Search

Lots of recorded data on deaths from falls. Let us know if you see any on deaths from non-defective scuba cylinder explosions not cause by O@ combustion.



What law makes it illegal for a citizen to do anything they want to a scuba cylinder they own? Or might this be some PSI misinformation?

Perhaps it is a poorly written statement by Bill. It might be better to add the words "in commerce" to those statements. I don't believe PSI really cares if you hurt yourself by overfilling a cylinder that you have modified using your own fill station located on your own premises. I believe that they are trying to prevent you from hurting anyone else by your actions. As shown by the incident in Tampa last year, the cylinder explosion does not necessarily occur during filling, it may occur days or months later. Say, on the crowded deck of a dive boat.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Also Bill (psi) was going around and holding VIS inspection class so you were certified to to this on your own, Have not herd it still going on, I am sure LDS were not for this and hasseld over you vis sticker. and the funny part is you go work at dive shop and you are the one doing a visual.

The only solution I can think of is have self guided scuba cylinders at your entry point and when you need extra air hit the control button on the submersible self guided scuba cylinder on the wrist pad and change your tank out. This also like Mr High say's should be part of the basic, advanced and specialty scuba classes.