Ow in bp/w

? An open water student should be worried about if the D-Rings are at good locations ?

An Open Water student should really not be worried about any of these sorts of things: D-rings, BP/Ws or not,etc. They should really not be coming into an Open Water Course with preconceptions of any kind if they really are interested in learning, because with basically no exceptions, no one brings relevant experience to an open water diving course. It's just too different from any previous experience.

One of the reasons to go with instructors with experience, over those without, is that experienced instructors basically know to ignore the 'knowledge' that many OW students bring into the class, and have learned non-confrontational ways of getting these 'informed' students to realize that really nothing about diving is learned outside the water, and especially not on the internet.

 

Gonna have to disagree with you there Dan. Even as staunch BP/W user, when I occasionally use a Jacket for CW teaching, I really don't notice much different at all.

So different, yes.
Markedly Superior, not a great deal.

It's really not that hard to get horizontal in Jacket BCD.

 

They won't know to be worried about D-ring location, but if the left chest d-ring is in the wrong place it will make it harder for the student to raise their LPI to vent properly.

---------- Post added May 14th, 2013 at 05:44 AM ----------

So you you are disputing the fact that many of the people who try a BP/W actually find them to be superior, based on your own experience? Sort of like disputing the fact that many people love salmon based on the fact that you can take it or leave it.

 

There are many bp/wing divers that can switch to a jacket BC and have perfect trim....
I will say the last time that I had to do this, I was really annoyed at the monstrous drag of the jacket BC.....normally I do a bog kick and a long glide....with all the drag from the jacket, it was constant kicking. Trim obviously was no big deal.

Then, there are people with body parts that make trim harder for them, given the "standard" BC, or even a standard configuration with bp/wing--for these divers, they will like how much more the bp/wing is customizable for trim than the jacket...

And the real issue here was not my opinion on this, but the easily seen opinions constantly expressed on SB and on FB...Dive shops used to be insulated from students walking in with "some" knowledge. It made it very easy for the shop to carry the gear they got the best deal on, and have it be the "best Gear" for the student. As this practice has been publicized on the Internet, many students just won't take it....and why should they?

In the 70's I used a plastic backplate and harness, with no BC...and a steel 72.... I liked that then, and I would like it now in summer time( where no buoyancy from a suit would be an issue). In the 80's the charter boats began pushing jacket BC's as required for safety....I hated these--they were bulky and the tank would move around with a life of it's own....swimming up current was harder with all the drag, and you would look forward to going on boats that were not caught up in the BC nonsense. After the mid80's, pretty much 100% of boats had us forced to use jackets....
When Halcyon came out around 1998, it was a breath of fresh air....the moment I tried one in the water, I knew the good ole days were back
Many other manufactures have since come to their senses and put out bp/wings, and they did this BEAUSE OF the overwhelming response of most OW divers that try the bp/wing...It is a growing market share, and it is what divers talk about wanting.

 

Well how are they superior? Give me a list.

I switched 6 years ago to a Zeagle Brigade and then to BP/W. I like the things, but did it change my trim or give new found powers of diving? Not really.

And of course it's based on my experience. I can't experience things for other people

 

1. BP/Wing-Easier for a wide range of divers to attain ideal gear configuration and balance so that they "NATURALLY" swim flat horizontal -- VERSUS many BC's where the norm is to see divers swimming at a 45 degree angle with them, feet down/head up, pushing a big bow wave.
2. BP/Wing- Does not have all the extra material and parachute like protruding areas like big pockets or open areas that "catch" water as it flows over them, slowing down the diver.
3. BP/Wing- allows the tank "to be ONE with the diver", like it is anatomically part of the diver's back when they roll or move....versus a standard Jacket BC where when the diver makes a sudden movement, their body moves, and after a delay, the tank moves, and then the diver must compensate for the delay.

These are the big 3 for me.

Additional issues.... I don't think you should buy fins to walk in ( don't buy them based on how easy they are to walk in--buy them for their PERFORMANCE underwater)---and I don't think you should by a BC for how it feels sitting on a chair in a shop, or standing on land....you buy it for what it can do for you underwater. As for the nonsense about surface swimming with a bp/wing, this comes from divers that were never taught how to swim at the surface with a bp/wing.....for many it is natural, but some people need to be shown--of course, this is what dive instructors are there for

I don't think divers should be told by a shop that it is good to clip a hundred things on to themselves with a BC with 2 dozen d rings, and to stuff a ton of gear into the huge billowy pockets some BC's have....Yes, it may help sales of dive accessories, but it creates a diver that is dangerously unable to move around easily ( with all the drag they have), so they become highly incompetent to handle the smallest currents, or the easiest swims to a boat ladder or anywhere. Since they have no Glide phase from their kick with all this drag, their leg muscles get no rest with the constant kicking, and the fatigue makes them desire fins that represent a lower gear ( like a gear to allow a bike to be ridden up a steep hill). So they end up with a wimpy split fin, and these are less fatiguing, but they are also far less able to push the diver at the speeds of a Jet fin or Hollis F1 or of the many traditional paddle fins that do not fatigue divers that can kick and glide.

 

Training Issue not Equipment issue

Certain Makes, not all

That's pretty subjective... Grasshopper

 

I'm not saying they are superior. I'm saying that many people prefer them. That is what you were disputing.

 

I dive BP/W & a variety of (back inflate) BC's. I really notice no real difference.

1. General Trim issue, can be corrected by correct placement of weighting & teaching the student to swim horizontally. Although the opposite is true, most divers, until they are properly taught, feel as if they have more control being more vertical.
   Both My Balance BC & WTX are great BC's without the extra material. Yes, there are BC's that can be a little much, but then there are some that are very nice & clean.
   This is simply a fit issue. Fit the BC properly, & it will not flop around. There is no "delay" in either of my BC's, as compared to my BP/W. I truly notice no real difference in trim or balance between the 3 BC's. I have even had to occasionally use a jacket style BC,... still no noticeable difference except the squeeze when the jacket is inflated.

ANY BC needs to be comfortable, both in & out of the water (again, proper fit). Back inflates do take a little "getting used to" on the surface (mostly making sure bladder is not over- inflated) to make things more comfortable. It isn't rocket science.

Our shop teaches to keep things stowed & clean, "danglies" are a no no. Maybe teaching minimalistic diving instead??? Also, we have many people with bad back, hips, knees,... that can not handle the stiffness & effort it takes for the Jets or F1's (Yes, I like them personally). What may work for 1 person does not always work for everyone. BTW, I have seen people in splits handle huge currents (Galapagos) in split fins with little to no trouble:shocked2:.

All your "issues" are easily fixed with the right guidance, whether a diver is diving a standard type BC or a BP/W. They are all BC's, they are all tools to make diving easier, they all serve the same basic function. Remember, what works for you, may or may not work for someone else.

 

No I'm disputing that BP/Ws are inherently superior. Peoples preferences are just that, preferences.