OW Maximum Dive Depth?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

dear andy, u mean by looking at someone u r able to determine the level of his/her diving proficiency even before he/she gets into the water? wow u can be a fortune teller!!

perhaps we need to engage u for our courts so that by ur 1 specialist look, u can determine if the suspect is guilty or not and have not to waste time and resources going to trial. did u learn this specialist skill by being a dive instructor?? if so, we will send all our lawyers to your specialist class!!

the extra money is NOT to cover any extra training whatsoever but just so to allow me to dive deeper. so what do u call this in the dive industry? facilitation fee?? muahahaha!!

there will always be black sheeps in any industry be it in the legal, medical, finance and dive industry. can u say that ALL dive instructors on this planet earth do not have any integrity/character issues??

so u dont have to blindly (without knowing the full facts of this case) to come out and speak for your country man juz becoz u r a brit and hv lived in thailand.

You do realize that the more you post, the more you prove Devon Divers point?

 

[Slunkmonky]

I think it makes business sense to turn someone away from a 80' dive if they have OW cert and it is suggested that 60' is a limit for new divers. 'New diver' is not a defined legal term and therefore can't be used to establish an affirmative defense. Are 100 dives enough to be 'not new' or is it 15? it's highly subjective, it's,, arguable. And that's what lawyers do, they argue. Often from assinine positions that only seem credible because of the confidence and verbal tact of the attorney and the gernerally inept audience they have to work with (how many juries would have even a single certified diver on them? statistically maybe one per every dozen trials or so.)

Therefore you take someone diving, they drown and you are in front of a jury having to admit that you took someone diving who "may have been adequately trained and expereinced to take that dive." as opposed to the guy who demands AOW as a credential to dive who can more solidly say that the person in question gave credentials to suggest that they were beyond the training needed to dive to 80'. "Well you see, many OW divers are more than adequately trained to go to such depths, this man was AOW, so naturally I assumed this was within his limitations." VS "Many OW certified are able to dive at that depth.. " "But not all?" "No." "Then how did you decide which kind of diver this was?" "Bahh....... I don't know. I made them pay more so I could afford my laywer right now?"

In a legal case you never want to be at the edge of affirmative defense, you want to surpass it,, the way you do that is by staying well beyond the range of who can be sued. Even then, you may have to lawyer up and go to court to prove you have an affirmative defense which in itself is expensive. People sue if they know they don't have a case to get people to settle for a much lower amount just to forego the possibility of losing at trial because of whacky mishaps, activists judges, misinterpretations or jury idiocy.

It also helps to operate in Thailand as opposed to Hawaii. When underage prositution is practically legal, you can probably run a pretty shoddy dive operation and not draw too much fire. Also the local authorities may view the tourists as people who come to pillage etc. In HI you can set the bar higher and probably still have a mass influx of qualified tourists, some of whom probably got AOW for the sole purpose of going on 60 - 80' dives with other AOW divers and not having to worry about newbs being around.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

The AOW card is not a valid method to determine if a diver is qualified to dive a site.
However, if a boat says AOW only allowed to a certain site on their web site / advertising, then they are less likely to have to personally inform (and insult) an unqualified diver (and potential customer for other dives).
So I recognize why they do it, even if I don't think it is accurate or effective.

 

[Bogtrotter]

The AOW card is not a valid method to determine if a diver is qualified to dive a site.
However, if a boat says AOW only allowed to a certain site on their web site / advertising, then they are less likely to have to personally inform (and insult) an unqualified diver (and potential customer for other dives).
So I recognize why they do it, even if I don't think it is accurate or effective.

Definitely, one can go from not knowing what a fin pivot is to being AOW certified in a matter weeks these days. The AOW is often just an addendum to your O/W cert, a safe way of introducing new students to deeper dives, and local dive shops will sometimes include it as an extra dive weekend for an additional cost or even throw it in for free to lure new divers in getting certified. You'll run through some additional skills and be taken down on at least one dive below 6o feet, but certainly it's not a true measure of experience at all.

As for rejecting a diver because they don't have the AOW- that's pretty rare in my experience. Certainly I would be peeved if I logged hundreds of dives over ten years at all depths were left on the dock, while Bubba and Skeeter who had never donned fins until a few months ago were taken down because they did a weekend AOW. But I guess if the AOW becomes the new requirement, then there will be MANY seasoned divers heading back to shop to git-r-done to avoid the embarrassment

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

in my honest opinion I think it makes good sense to recommend staying shallower then 60 feet at first because so many things play in to the scenario. One being that wearing the gear is still a relatively new concept and its task loading in itself to attempt to maintain neutral buoyancy, Monitor air consumption, keep up with your buddy, monitor depth and the list goes on and on.

As experience is gained many task loading becomes second nature and allows to move into more relaxed breathing. I have dove myself when new and have even observed new divers who burn through air so fast they literaly if paying attention would be in trouble at more then 60 feet.

My first dive outside of certification was a record setting 60 feet for only 10 minutes or so which I was so embarrased. Now I do 100 feet and have more gas then NDL time.

I would recommend though if you have a little extra cash though just get an advanced certification and it will automaticly take you out of having to worry about that. I personaly have certified in Deep and AOW just to keep from missing the boat on the best dives

Wow 10 mins, now I don't feel so bad about going through 2 tanks compared to my dive instructors 2/3 of nitrox during a deep wreck dive, and and compass dive. And it's not fair to the other divers to have to end the dive because of one divers air consumption.

 

[motorref]

And it's not fair to the other divers to have to end the dive because of one divers air consumption.

I don't agree with this statement, though I seem to be having trouble verbalizing why; as a new diver I expect to use more air than an experienced diver, and have tried to "buddy up" with someone that not only understands that, but can help me to relax and reduce my air consumption. As you gain experience and become more relaxed at depth, your consumption rate will (should) reduce, but if not there is always the option of using larger tanks; I did this last month in Freeport, starting out w/ a 100, but by the middle of the week I was back into an 80, and my dives were ending because the other diver was low on air (on a 63).
While I had enough air for another 20 - 30 minutes, I had no issues with coming up early because someone else was short on air; I still enjoyed the dive, gained more experience that will allow me to continue on, and stayed safe - all of the key elements I expect from diving.

KevinL

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I don't agree with this statement, though I seem to be having trouble verbalizing why; as a new diver I expect to use more air than an experienced diver, and have tried to "buddy up" with someone that not only understands that, but can help me to relax and reduce my air consumption. As you gain experience and become more relaxed at depth, your consumption rate will (should) reduce, but if not there is always the option of using larger tanks; I did this last month in Freeport, starting out w/ a 100, but by the middle of the week I was back into an 80, and my dives were ending because the other diver was low on air (on a 63).
While I had enough air for another 20 - 30 minutes, I had no issues with coming up early because someone else was short on air; I still enjoyed the dive, gained more experience that will allow me to continue on, and stayed safe - all of the key elements I expect from diving.

KevinL

Think there was a slight misunderstanding, I don't have a problem coming up when someone else is low on air, or having any other problem. I meant don't won't to be the one that's always short on air. I know I have a problem with this and spend alot of time in pools trying to work on it, but won't really know how much it helped until I'm back in OW again. Would love to find a buddy to dive with on a regular basis. One of the guys on one of our dives said to me "dude you really suck up some air, and why you play with your bcd so much". I was having problems with bouyancy. Now he had no suggestions to help me.

 

[DevonDiver]

One of the guys on one of our dives said to me "dude you really suck up some air, and why you play with your bcd so much". I was having problems with bouyancy. Now he had no suggestions to help me.

It sounds a lot like the root of your problem is over-weighting.... which is pretty common.

Scuba Buoyancy Masterclass 4of9 - Assessing Your Weight Requirements

 

[fish149]

And there are certainly too many lawyers... "So, why did you take an OW diver beyond the limits of their training?" There is no defense for this.

Richard

Yep, Lawyers suck (if they're of the ambulance chasing class).....

 

[Marek K]

I don't know from which agency your OW certification is, but I am a PADI Instructor since 1989 and at least with regards to PADI you are true, there was no 60' restriction 18 years ago, as it is not today. But there ever has been a 60' recommendation for new certified OW divers.

I was OWD certified in 1985 (PADI), and don't remember any 60' recommendation at that time. The 130' recreational limit was very clear, but that was the only depth parameter.

In fact, looking at my first log book, I see that my OW-4 and OW-5 dives were at 12-Mile Ledge off of Wrightville Beach, NC -- to a max depth of 67' for each dive.

I took AOW a year later from the same dive shop (but different instructor). Our AOW deep dive was also off of Wrightville Beach -- ironically just to 65'.

I agree the 60' (OWD) and 100' (AOW) recommendations since that time are good ones. But we dived with a very reputable operator on Grand Cayman last week; they were taking divers to 100'+ every day on the first dive of the day, without any regard to their certification level or experience. Of course, these were guided dives, but they were allowing buddy teams to peel off on their own too. I have mixed feelings about that. They were obviously putting trust in divers, but if I were them I would have been tempted to "suggest" that fairly inexperienced OWD divers go on a different boat on relatively shallower dives.