OW training and DSD questions.

[JackD342]

@shurite7 covered much of what I would have to say. Many more factors, including practical needs, go into the length of a dive rather than just the amount of air remaining. The times you cited I think are quite reasonable. PADI has a minimum for duration of an OW training dive, based on either dive time or air consumed. I forget the air standard, but the time is a minimum of 20 minutes.

Also remember that you are an experienced, comfortable diver, not a newbie that is not even certified yet. The instructor probably has a good feel from past experience for not pushing the limits of student divers and wearing them out before accomplishing the agenda for the day. Priority #1 (after safety of course) is to get the course work done. Have fun is a close second, but not the primary objective. Depending on what is going on, that training dive may have also involved another solid chunk of time doing surface skills, and that all starts to weigh on the student diver's energy level and focus on the task at hand.

Regarding DSD, it sounds as though your expectation was a one-on-one instructor to diver ratio. While close supervision and low ratios are a PADI DSD standard, one-to-one is NOT a standard. The divemasters also play a role in head count and supervision. From your description it is not obvious to me that the DSD diver(s) weren't adequately supervised, although it might have been the case.

 

[Saboteur]

Could you clarify what you mean by plenty of air left? Are we talking like 100Bar/1450Psi or something completely different?

Yes, I'm finishing with 1500 psi. I would guess divers in the other 2 DM led groups were not far off.

 

[Saboteur]

It is unclear from what you wrote, did the instructor leave his DSD student unattended or did he just trail slightly behind the DSD student when the student was successfully buoyant at the surface in the vicinity of the boat? How far away was the instructor from the student? What was the instructor doing? was he attending to a safety issue? Was there a safety issue present with your child? Did the instructor brief your son that he should keep his reg in his mouth when climbing the ladder but your son took it out to talk to you at some point and forgot about it?...while it is good form to keep your reg in your mouth until on board the boat, this is not really something critical...it allows you to breath unencumbered if you fall off the ladder...if the seas are calm then not so much a big deal, when the waves are rolling it is more prudent to keep it in. For fins, some ladders are not conducive to climbing with fins so it is all based on the circumstances. Perhaps the instructor move to the rear so he could keep a better on eye on you and your son.

A 40+ minute DSD seems rather long to me...thats great that your son got the opportunity to do a DSD that long.

-Z

No, we were 1,2,3 in a line alongside the boat; instructor, student, me. As the instructor got approximately alongside the port motor he about faced and went toward the anchor line. We proceed to exit. No instructions given to wait for him and he did not get behind me. No communication given as to where he was going. With other divers a bit further back proceeded to just keep on with exiting the water. No specific instructions were given on how to safely exit to him, there was enough chop and a bit of current to make one need to to hang on to the ladder. As I mentioned the instructor boarded a few minutes after us, we already had our BC's off when he came aboard. This was a 1:1 DSD (with me as certified tagging along). There were two other DM's in the water with two other groups. It could be that something needed attention farther back. It just seemed odd to me on a 1:1 DSD that the instructor would attend to something else as the student safety even at the exit is his concern.

 

[Zef]

This was a 1:1 DSD (with me as certified tagging along).

On a DSD there is no such thing as a certified diver "tagging along"...PADI standards dictate that certified divers accompanying a DSD are to be included in the instructor-student ratio:

PADI INSTRUCTOR MANUAL (pg. 136)
If certified divers join Discover Scuba Diving participants, count the certified divers in the ratio and stay within the Discover Scuba Diving participant-to-instructor ratio.

The standards also dictate that the instructor needs to maintain a position to make immediate physical contact with the participants:

PADI INSTRUCTOR MANUAL (pg. 136)
Supervision:
•Do not leave participants unattended, either at the surface or underwater.
•Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant can make immediate physical contact with, adjust buoyancy for, and render assistance to, participants.
•Continually observe participants with only the brief, periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to provide assistance to individual divers.
•Do not engage in any other activities, such as taking photographs or video, while supervising participants.

I was not there so I have no perspective of what actually transpired other than the info you have provided...If you feel there was violation of standards based on the above then your recourse would be to contact PADI and infrom them of your concern. Expect to provide the instructor's name and/or their PADI instructor number (if they stamped any paperwork the number is usually a part of their stamp but not required).

-Z

 

[Saboteur]

Wh

On a DSD there is no such thing as a certified diver "tagging along"...PADI standards dictate that certified divers accompanying a DSD are to be included in the instructor-student ratio:

PADI INSTRUCTOR MANUAL (pg. 136)
If certified divers join Discover Scuba Diving participants, count the certified divers in the ratio and stay within the Discover Scuba Diving participant-to-instructor ratio.

The standards also dictate that the instructor needs to maintain a position to make immediate physical contact with the participants:

PADI INSTRUCTOR MANUAL (pg. 136)
Supervision:
•Do not leave participants unattended, either at the surface or underwater.
•Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant can make immediate physical contact with, adjust buoyancy for, and render assistance to, participants.
•Continually observe participants with only the brief, periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to provide assistance to individual divers.
•Do not engage in any other activities, such as taking photographs or video, while supervising participants.

I was not there so I have no perspective of what actually transpired other than the info you have provided...If you feel there was violation of standards based on the above then your recourse would be to contact PADI and infrom them of your concern. Expect to provide the instructor's name and/or their PADI instructor number (if they stamped any paperwork the number is usually a part of their stamp but not required).

-Z

Thanks for the information. Depending on how one interprets the point 2 term "immediate" then there may be another standard violation with respect to relative depth (instructor to student) and distance which I felt was excessive so I stayed very close to him, much closer than the DM. My estimation is there was approximately 6 feet of depth and 12 feet, sometimes more of distance.

 

[TMHeimer]

Wh

Thanks for the information. Depending on how one interprets the point 2 term "immediate" then there may be another standard violation with respect to relative depth (instructor to student) and distance which I felt was excessive so I stayed very close to him, much closer than the DM. My estimation is there was approximately 6 feet of depth and 12 feet, sometimes more of distance.

Yes, that's the catch. We must define "immediate". Can an instructor with 4 DSD students--or even just 2-- be ALWAYS in "immediate" contact with both (all) and be able to grab one that bolts to the surface while remaining in immediate contact with the others? No problem with one on one.

 

[purbeast]

When I did DSD in 2017 down in the Keys there were 4 of us with 1 instructor. He wasn't "within reaching distance" of everyone the whole time, but it was fine. We were down like 20-25 feet and all comfortable in the water and he could clearly tell that from the morning pool session.

When I was there last week and did my first dives after being certified, I asked them if I could dive with my buddies who are going to do the DSD again when we plan a trip for the fall. He said that I can definitely go with them on the dive, but I would be one of the 4 that an instructor has to keep an eye on. So if we have more than 5 people total (including myself) then we would have 2 instructors with us.

 

[SandyRobinson]

Bottom time seems pretty good but I would have thought the instructor would have exited after you son. I think the question I would have is, "with a little chop and current in the water, if your son had fallen off the ladder, could the instructor reached him in time for assistance?'

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Bottom time seems pretty good but I would have thought the instructor would have exited after you son. I think the question I would have is, "with a little chop and current in the water, if your son had fallen off the ladder, could the instructor reached him in time for assistance?'

Yep.
We tend to go: instructor, first one in, last one out.
DM, last one in, first one out.

 

[Saboteur]

Bottom time seems pretty good but I would have thought the instructor would have exited after you son. I think the question I would have is, "with a little chop and current in the water, if your son had fallen off the ladder, could the instructor reached him in time for assistance?'

In that case no, since the instructor was behind me (not immediately behind me).