Oxygen sensor failure

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Storker

ScubaBoard Supporter
ScubaBoard Supporter
Scuba Instructor
Divemaster
Messages
17,334
Reaction score
13,743
Location
close to a Hell which occasionally freezes over
# of dives
100 - 199


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...


Thread split from:
https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/nitrox-analyzer-to-take-or-not-to-take.570598
To continue the discussion.



im assuming you l have to check and sign for your nitrox? so its already been checked at blending and then again at signing with a different analyser
That's also a great way to safeguard against a current-limited cell, since the risk of two cells failing with the same current ceiling at the same time is pretty small.

In my class we were taught that we had to calibrate the analyser before checking the tank. Wouldn't that make a second analyser moot?
You calibrate against air, don't you? A failing cell may well be able to be calibrated to 21%, but then give too low values for a richer mix. Electro-galvanic oxygen sensor - Wikipedia

The only proper way to get around this is two-point calibration: Both on a leaner mix and a richer mix than the one you're planning to breathe. Since that usually is rather impractical for us OC divers, checking with two different analysers - for me that's typically one analysis just after filling and one analysis at the site - gives you a bit of a safety margin: If both calibrated analysers give you an fO2 within about a percentage point of each other, you can be reasonably sure that you're OK. If they differ noticeably, one of them is giving the wrong reading. Since you then can't know which one is right I personally wouldn't breathe the tank until I had access to a third instrument which agreed with one of the two others.
 
That's also a great way to safeguard against a current-limited cell, since the risk of two cells failing with the same current ceiling at the same time is pretty small.

I was wondering about this, and I couldn't find anything definitive with a few minutes of googling. I guess there is a bell curve for everything, but does current limitation really become an issue for typical nitrox mixes? I never heard of anyone using an OC back gas richer than 36%, so it would have to be pretty severe current limitation to calibrate at 21% but be limited at 36%.

There are other failure modes of galvanic sensors, but I always assumed that current limitation wasn't the same issue in this portion of the range that it is with CCRs above 1.0.
 
The first couple of days we were diving the standard banked 30% EAN. Each time I analysed the tank with the shop analyser I was getting 28-29%. I checked it a few times with my analyser and it read 30%. So only a minor variance. I set my DC to 29%.

On day 3 we lined our selves up for some deco diving so our group requested air in back gas and stages with 50% and 100%. The shop analyser on my stages read 48% and 90% respectively. My analyser said 50% and 98%. This was consistent for the next 4 days of deco diving.

So as per @doctormike at the low end of the EAN range = minor variance, top end = high variance.

That should help you with your decision.

Mike
This is an example of a current limited cell which should be replaced. A 96-102% reading for what is "known" to be Oxygen is normal calibration variance. 90% is a good hint that the cell is needing replacement.

As you illustrated it's still "good enough" for 32% diving.
 
I was wondering about this, and I couldn't find anything definitive with a few minutes of googling. I guess there is a bell curve for everything, but does current limitation really become an issue for typical nitrox mixes? I never heard of anyone using an OC back gas richer than 36%, so it would have to be pretty severe current limitation to calibrate at 21% but be limited at 36%.
I've seen a cell fail to calibrate to 21%, but it didn't show zero. I could turn the calibration up to show some 18%. If I'd used it a little bit earlier, it might well have been able to calibrate properly at 21% but fail to give me a correct reading at 32% or 36%.

Problem is, you can't know how current limited the cell is until it fails to show the correct mix. If you routinely calibrate at 21%, but it's current limited at 50% it should still give a correct reading at 32%. If it's current limited at 30%, you have a problem if you're diving 32%. The only proper way to check that the cell is linear in the range you're operating is to calibrate both below and above the mix you're diving. Checking the mix with two different analyzers is still a big improvement over trusting that the cell is linear in the range from 21% to the mix you're using.
 
Warning: Geeky material below!

I'm not an expert on O2 cells, but I do know a bit about analyses in general, and I've used other types of electrochemical cells in my day job. So while there probably are some flaws in my understanding, this is how I understand it.

Disclaimer: The shape of the curves I show is only for illustrative purposes. I don't know how the response curves look for a cell which has started to become current limited, so don't take the figures for more than illustrations of a principle!

An electrochemical analysis cell delivers a voltage which varies with the concentration or partial pressure of what you want to analyze. During translation from that voltage to an analysis value, there's some math involved. The response of the instrument (measured value vs real value) should be linear, but generally we can't know whether the offset is right (zero measured is zero real), nor whether the slope is correct (amount measured twice as high means that real amount is twice as high). So some instruments give you the opportunity to adjust both. In that case, we need at least two calibration points, and generally you calibrate offset at one point and slope at the other.

As a general rule, an analysis instrument should be calibrated at at least two points: One point below the expected measured value, and one point above, but that has to be weighed against the risk of a user not being properly trained messing up the calibration completely.

Recreational O2 analyzers are designed to have a constant slope and have only one adjustment, which is offset. So if your analyzer is off by 2% at 21%, it should be off by 2% at 36%. Everything is fine, no matter whether you calibrate at one point or at two points:
upload_2018-11-28_12-21-43.png


The failure mode of an O2 cell is current limitation. Which means that it starts to fail by not being able to deliver the correct current - which the instrument converts to a voltage - at the highest pPO2 (which, for us rec divers, is equal to fO2 when we analyze our tanks). So, the voltage the instrument reads is lower than it should be. As @rjack321 said, it might still be usable if the current limitation sets in above my max fO2, but the situation might get rather nasty for a rebreather pilot who can go up to 1.6 bar pPO2 (and, AFAIK, only can go to 1.013bar during calibration). I still can't see the failure, neither with single-point nor with two-point calibration. However, with two-point calibration I can still be reasonably certain that my cell is linear in the range up to my richest mix:
upload_2018-11-28_12-50-14.png

When the cell becomes even older, I might - at least theoretically - get to the point where the cell fails somewhere between 21% and my current mix. This is where two-point calibration comes in pretty handy, because it will show that I can't calibrate properly at both points. I still can't know where the failure point is, but since it's below my high calibration point I can't trust my cell anymore. If I use single-point calibration, I won't see that:
upload_2018-11-28_12-31-49.png

Which is why I really, really like to use two different analyzers. It isn't much of a PITA, because I always analyze twice anyway: Once during filling, with my club's analyzer, and once at the divesite, with my personal analyzer. In addition to safeguarding me a bit against a failed cell, it also allows me to check that the mix is what the label says (and I don't make the same mistake as Carlos Fonseca did...).

Only when the cell has almost completely failed will I be able to see the failure if I rely on only one analyzer and single-point calibration:
upload_2018-11-28_12-39-57.png
 

Attachments

  • upload_2018-11-28_12-28-28.png
    upload_2018-11-28_12-28-28.png
    23 KB · Views: 65
  • upload_2018-11-28_12-47-21.png
    upload_2018-11-28_12-47-21.png
    20.8 KB · Views: 66
I've seen a cell fail to calibrate to 21%, but it didn't show zero. I could turn the calibration up to show some 18%. If I'd used it a little bit earlier, it might well have been able to calibrate properly at 21% but fail to give me a correct reading at 32% or 36%.

Problem is, you can't know how current limited the cell is until it fails to show the correct mix. If you routinely calibrate at 21%, but it's current limited at 50% it should still give a correct reading at 32%. If it's current limited at 30%, you have a problem if you're diving 32%. The only proper way to check that the cell is linear in the range you're operating is to calibrate both below and above the mix you're diving. Checking the mix with two different analyzers is still a big improvement over trusting that the cell is linear in the range from 21% to the mix you're using.

Right, but current limitation and non-linearity are two different failure modes. So that was my question - in actual usage, does current limitation happen at PO2s in the .3 range, or is the failure there more likely to be non-linearity?
 
Right, but current limitation and non-linearity are two different failure modes. So that was my question - in actual usage, does current limitation happen at PO2s in the .3 range, or is the failure there more likely to be non-linearity?
When I can't get get the displayed value to reach 21%, my interpretation is that it's current limited. I can't imagine a nonlinear response curve giving that behavior unless the non-linearity is due to current limitation. BTW, for me, current limitation is one mode of non-linearity. Voltage linearly proportional to pPO2 up to a limit, then turning flat.

And the mentioned cell was dead as a bunch of dodos the next time I checked it a couple weeks later. No non-linearity problems then, it was linearly flat at zero over the whole range :)
 
When I can't get get the displayed value to reach 21%, my interpretation is that it's current limited. I can't imagine a nonlinear response curve giving that behavior unless the non-linearity is due to current limitation. BTW, for me, current limitation is one mode of non-linearity. Voltage linearly proportional to pPO2 up to a limit, then turning flat.

And the mentioned cell was dead as a bunch of dodos the next time I checked it a couple weeks later. No non-linearity problems then, it was linearly flat at zero over the whole range :)

That is true from a semantic point of view. A wide variety of failure modes could be considered non-linearity.

But I think that in common usage, non-linearity is a useful term to describe a measurement error that widens progressively over the range of usability. Cell A reads perfectly up to 1.1 and then will not produce any higher output no matter what the PO2 is. Cell B produces output that varies by different percentages from expected at .21, .32 and .36. Both are literally "non-linear", but these errors are addressed differently.
 
I think that in common usage, non-linearity is a useful term to describe a measurement error that widens progressively over the range of usability. Cell A reads perfectly up to 1.1 and then will not produce any higher output no matter what the PO2 is. Cell B produces output that varies by different percentages from expected at .21, .32 and .36. Both are literally "non-linear", but these errors are addressed differently.
They are. But can you suggest how cell B can refuse to show 20.9% in atmospheric pressure air and insist on going only to some 18-ish% no matter how I twiddle the knob? I can't.

The only proper way to detect non-linearity is to check the calibration at more than two points. Minimum three, preferably more. Distributed over the whole range the cell is supposed to cover.
 
They are. But can you suggest how cell B can refuse to show 20.9% in atmospheric pressure air and insist on going only to some 18-ish% no matter how I twiddle the knob? I can't.

Two possibilities. Cell is current limited at 0.21 or your knob-twiddle-range is limited to a multiplier less than that necessary to accommodate your cell.

The only proper way to detect non-linearity is to check the calibration at more than two points. Minimum three, preferably more. Distributed over the whole range the cell is supposed to cover.

True. I bought one of these.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom