padi getting involved

[BladesRobinson]

Many on the team were trained in our early days by an Ex-Navy Seal, who pushed us beyond the normal Open Water Training classes as he realized what we would be doing.

It is with a sad irony that the recreational scuba instructor in Indianapolis was also an "Ex-Navy SEAL" and active public safety diver. His live, the lives of the widows and fatherless children, and the lives of the teammates and agency administrators will be changed forever.

Randy ... feel free to use the PDF and the "foundation" word. As Gary stated though, the training typically offered by a recreational instructor is NOT Public Safety Diver training. There is a lot more to it. The challenge about placing divers in their "real environment" is that the chances of having a serious accident increase greatly unless extra precautions have been implemented. The concern I have is if these guys are comfortable "sport diving" in the PSD environment, they may be comfortable trying to assume the PSD duties too. This CAN cause some problems. This is where "recreational" and "PSD" collide and the result can be a "train wreck."

Safe diving,

Blades Robinson

 

[MikeFerrara]

I hate to break the new but there are already lots of PADI instructors who teach PSD courses as PADI distinctive specialties. There are also quit a few dive teams who use this training. A couple of the courses I've heard about are underwater crime sceen investigation and laws1 and laws2 (I think they're called). From the descriptions I've seen, they cover about everything from swift water rescue to repelling.

I don't have any first hand knowledge concerning the quality of these courses but, again, there are plenty of dive teams who get all their training from the local dive shop.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It is with a sad irony that the recreational scuba instructor in Indianapolis was also an "Ex-Navy SEAL" and active public safety diver. His live, the lives of the widows and fatherless children, and the lives of the teammates and agency administrators will be changed forever.

Randy ... feel free to use the PDF and the "foundation" word. As Gary stated though, the training typically offered by a recreational instructor is NOT Public Safety Diver training. There is a lot more to it. The challenge about placing divers in their "real environment" is that the chances of having a serious accident increase greatly unless extra precautions have been implemented. The concern I have is if these guys are comfortable "sport diving" in the PSD environment, they may be comfortable trying to assume the PSD duties too. This CAN cause some problems. This is where "recreational" and "PSD" collide and the result can be a "train wreck."

Safe diving,

Blades Robinson

Unfortunately, the Inianapolis accidents happened while they were practicing excersizes that have long been taught in recreational courses...rope searches and recovering light to medium weight objects from the bottom.

Whether or not that training is adequate for PSD work is one issue. The other issue is that there wasn't any reason that the training couldn't have been conducted without all the deadly screwups. Read those reports closely, especially the first accident. If the reports are accurate, it was an absolute mess and they weren't doing anything that isn't done in every single PADI S&R, rescue course or even an AOW course.

I owned a dive shop when those accidents accured and I offered FREE training to PSD team members. Not because I can teach PSD because I can't. I can teach diving though and after reading those reports, I was convinced that PSD specific skills weren't the problem. The problem was that they couldn't dive.

 

[bridgediver]

I was convinced that PSD specific skills weren't the problem. The problem was that they couldn't dive.

No offense Mike but if you aren't a PSD and haven't taken any specific PSD training how can you know this?

I personally don't even consider PSD as "scuba diving", its that different.

Of course you're also right that there are allot of sport diving agency instructors claiming that they can teach PSD - that's why I say run away. I'm certain that Blades has MANY more stats on this (I've seen more than a few myself).

Years ago, our team thought it would be a good idea to ramp up our skills by taking other sport diving classes. We were already DR1 but went to the local shop to get AOW and rescue diver. The instructor gave us a course that she thought was applicable to us but it was a complete waste of time. She simpily didn't know what we do. She took our money though and critisized the team for stirring up the bottom too much and suggested that we should take a bouyancy class! - clueless!

The person in question in this thread probably isn't quite as bad because he at least knows the job but a proffessional PSD educator makes all the difference - not someone that does it in their spare time or read a bunch of books or has hundereds of tethered line searches.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
I was convinced that PSD specific skills weren't the problem. The problem was that they couldn't dive.

No offense Mike but if you aren't a PSD and haven't taken any specific PSD training how can you know this?

A fair question. My comment is based on the fact that, as I read the report, they were doing a circular rope search. While I don't have any PSD training I am trained to do some searches and have trained many others to do them also.

I personally don't even consider PSD as "scuba diving", its that different.

PSD may involve many things that recreational diving does not. However, there are many skills that do apply to both. If you don't possess those skills that apply to both, I don't think it likely that you are good at either.

To take it further, whether it's good or not, the simple fact is that many PSD teams and divers are oporating with nothing more than recreational dive training. So, while you can claim that it should be different, it isn't always.

Now, let me throw a couple of other things at you. I worked with a shop that was doing a lot of training for PSD team members. We trained them in S&R, ice, dry suit and so on. I don't recall ever being the certifying instructor in any of those classes but as an instructor, I conducted or supervised quit a few individual dives. I saw PSD team members given ice diving tickets when I would have rather seen them back in the pool. They just flat out sucked in the water. Maybe these were just some special PSD techniques that I'm just not qualified to understand but I wouldn't give two cents on their chances of survival on the job.

Want more? I was in a shop when some folks came in with a bag of donated regs. The tech took them apart and made a couple of functioning regs from the parts. That was PSD team equipment they were building.

I had a department contact me wanting me to OW certify some guys that wanted on their team. You see, OW certification and being a fire fighter is all they require. They even wanted me to conduct that entry level training in the zero vis, high traffic lake that is in their jurisdiction. Now maybe these PSD guys just know something that I don't but I refused. Fotunately that team doesn't get many calls because if they did...well use your imagination.

When I owned a dive shop, I had quit a few students who took courses like OW, AOW, S&R, rescue, ice...and guess what? That was their PSD trainaing. I mean, that was all of it. I didn't market it as such but that's why they were there. I am not nor have I ever claimed to be qualified to teach PSD but I guess I've trained quit a few anyway. To my knowledge, thank the Lord, all the ones I trained are still alive. Some good solid dive skills may not enable one to function in PSD but it demonstrably can help one stay alive in the water and maybe, most importantly, know when to tell the department to get lost and just stay out of the water.

My opinion after hovering out there on the fringe of this stuff for quit a while is that there are some police officers and fire fighters getting killed doing basic stuff that some of us recreational guys do all the time...I have to insert a short story here... A friend of mine lost his son who fell through the ice in a local river. The dive team, made a couple of attempts but weren't equiped for it and never got much of a search under way. The local dive club went in and recovered the body. Aside from the dismal task at hand it was just another ice dive for them...I think they should go to lifeguard systems, dive rescue international or who ever else specializes in PSD but in many cases that isn't what's happening. Often it just amounts to some police officers and fire fighters (or those running the department) who think they know more about diving than divers...because PSD is different. Too often, the results speak for themselves. When some young officer who has a young family and trusts his superiors gets killed doing basic searches in training, they probably shouldn't put too much energy into pointing out what I don't know. Divers who specialize in PSD, no doubt, know much more about it than us recreational folks. On the other hand, those who are barely divers with no such specialization but on a team or running a team anyway, are just dangerous...and there are quit a few of those out there.

 

[BladesRobinson]

I hate to break the news but there are already lots of PADI instructors who teach PSD courses as PADI distinctive specialties. There are also quite a few dive teams who use this training.

This is not "new" news to this forum member and your statement helps prove the point I tried to make with my original post.

An extraordinarily high number of PSD fatalities take place in the "training" mode and 50% of those fatalities have been under the direct supervision of "recreational" SCUBA instructors!

It is a fact too that ALL of the PSDs killed in the line of duty have been trained by "recreational" SCUBA instructors!

Mike, I agree with you. There are a lot of PSDs trained by well-intentioned "recreational" SCUBA instructors AND I think you will agree, there are too many line-of-duty deaths. As pointed out, oftentimes the instructors pass out certification cards like PEZ dispensers without understanding that the lives of these divers (and the citizens they protect) depend on PERFECTION.

If there were statistics available, I believe the point could be proven that statistically, PSDs trained by recreational instructors were more likely to die than the recreational students trained by the same recreational SCUBA instructors.

Before getting on my department I worked at one dive store and opened/managed another. A very small percentage of divers trained through my store worked for a public safety agency. I would guess the ratio to be about 1 per 1,000. Using that estimate, I am going to may a wild GUESS that for every PSD that is trained by recreational agencies, there are about 1,000 recreational divers trained through the same agency.

It is a fact that on an average, two to three public safety divers are killed each year (right now we are overdue!).

Using the estimates stated above, (1:1,000), it is very unlikely that 2,000 to 3,000 recreational divers are being killed annually. So this is the basis for my opinion.

I have a profound respect for good SCUBA instructors. I taught the PADI programs for a number of years and like Mike and Randy, I felt my students were pretty squared away. I even trained members of my own department under the PADI umbrella until I learned first hand there was a better way.

I attended my first DRI program in 1987 and was a pretty cocky "know-it-all" diver since I was an instructor, a former dive store manager, a commercial diving harvester, had been on the department for a number of years, etc. (I had been around the block more than once)

In the first two hours of my class, I realized I didn't know squat about real PSD!

Since that time in 1987, I have made it my goal to NEVER quit learning. And one of the things I have learned is there are some similarities between recreational and PSD but there are also HUGE differences between the two!

Mike, I am appreciative of the good things you do for the PSD team in your area and I appreciate you bringing this issue up.

Blades Robinson

 

[mirrocraft]

well i want to thank everyone for there great info on this. i also wanted to thank every one for being adults about this i know this could have become a huge back and forth thing im glad it didnt i am going to try to make changes in any way i can i am taking as many facts out of this and present it to the man in charge of our dive team im also going to see if i can get him to host some training so we can do it right. if not im at least going to find someone and do the training my self so i have a full under standing

 

[Gary D.]

Like some other PSD’s I came out of the recreational, commercial and navy diving worlds.

It was in October 76 when I was standing in our dining room looking at the mountains when I decided to call the Sheriff’s Office and ask about Search and Rescue. They directed me to the unit leader who I called.

He told me the unit was at its capacity unless I had a real special skill. My first response was that I didn’t. He asked if I was in the military. I said I was a Navy Diver and 30 minutes later I was at his house signing up.

After that move I realized I didn’t know squat about what I had just gotten myself into. It was nothing like I had done in the past and the team at that time was a recovery and not a rescue team.

So over the years we developed a system that worked by contacting other teams, doing a lot of research but most of all working on diver skills. It wasn’t until around 1990 that we were able to get the department to go with formal PSD training and we will never look back.

If you have been keeping up with what we do in training you will see that we stress basic skills. We kick our guy’s butts by doing everything to them but removing their skivvies. But in the end they all know as long as they have air they are not in trouble. Then when the air goes away they know how to get home.

Other than an OW certification, which consists of a lot more than the normal OW the rest of their training is done in-house. We have found over the years that the more recreational classes they get the more bad habits we have to break when it comes to PSD.

I think the main killer of PSD’s are the lack of proper training, the wrong training, PEER PRESSURE, and just not thinking about what they are about to face.

Training is the biggest killer with recoveries being second. Why, one would think rescues would be as the other two have no time urgency.

I just can not agree with recreational instructors, military or commercial divers thinking they can teach PSD as they are different worlds.

Gary D.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I hope nothing I said gave the impression that I think recreational diving instructors should be teaching PSD because that's not the case at all. I don't even think that most recreational training does a good job of preparing divers for recreational diving.

 

[Gary D.]

I hope nothing I said gave the impression that I think recreational diving instructors should be teaching PSD because that's not the case at all. I don't even think that most recreational training does a good job of preparing divers for recreational diving.

You didn't. You've been around long enough we know what you were refering to. You last part sure hits the nail on the head.

Gary D.