PADI vs NAUI

[Downing]

I had to do this on purpose. My mask was kicked off a boat 27ft down. Went down maskless and breathing. Don't see the issue or big deal. Found my mask and put it on at depth - as I was trained to.

santa

I took Rescue Diver in Belize with Splash years ago. After we were done with two and a half days of drills, my instructor told me the final dive was just a regular dive but that there would be a "surprise" that I would have to deal with somewhere along the way. So of course, for the first 20 minutes I was on high alert. Just as I started to relax and kind of forget about it, he came up behind me and tore my mask off. There it was, floating in front of my face. Frankly, I was kind of disappointed as mask retrieval, putting it back on and clearing had never been an issue for me. So you lose your mask, so what? You're still breathing and as long as you're still breathing you should be able to work through whatever the problem. I was hoping he'd turn off my air or something a little more challenging.

So I decided to let my mask float down to the bottom to make it at least a little harder to retrieve. After four or five seconds of watching it slowly sink, the instructor kind of jumped, grabbed my mask and handed it back to me. I laughed, gave him the "no, no, no" finger waggle, held the mask out in front of me and dropped it again, giving him the ok sign. I let it float down to just above the reef, then retrieved it, put it back on, cleared it and again gave him the ok sign.

Sure enough, back on the surface he said he thought I froze since I was just staring at my sinking mask and we got a good laugh out of it.

NAUI does require full madk removal during the course both in class/pool time and open water?
Just completed my open water with Conch Republic Divers in Tavernier, was a great time.

My son and I dived with them maybe ten years ago. First class operation. Really great diving there, too.

 

[oly5050user]

Skills taught are almost identical.
PADI has a semi-structured order that skills have to be tested, some skills are flexible as to when. NAUI recommends, but has no requirement for when a skill is tested.
NAUI requires a skin dive, PADI does not.
Both agencies require 4 scuba dives.
PADI Instructors have to certify when all the skills have been tested and completed.
NAUI Instructors can hold back a certification if they feel that the student is not competent, even if all skills are complete.

Both cards are recognized worldwide.

Back in the old days a NAUI Instructor Program was one of the more difficult. Such was the case for my NAUI ITC vs. my PADI IDC. I don’t know if that is the case any longer or not. It literally is the Instructor you choose these days, not the agency.

Not true about PADI instructor required to certify when all skills tested and completed. If student cannot perform skill in a smooth (stress free) repeatable manner they have not demonstrated mastery and should not be certified. I have had no problem failing a student that I find unable to do skills in a satisfactory manner. Naui is no better than PADI and PADI is no better than naui. All dependent on instructor and how he/ she conducts the course. I am speaking as an instructor teaching over 40 years for 3 different agencies . One thing I find with PADI is at an I.E. The examiner is from a different area than candidates and does not know them, this ensures no favoritism . Example: I had a divemaster candidate that I would not pass, I failed him. Could not do skills correctly. He went to Domican Republic , paid $500 to a NAUI course director for a card,
and came back as a NAUI instructor. This soured me on agencies that allow their course directors certify instructors without an examiner who has nothing to gain or lose if a candidate passes or fails.

 

[Sam Miller III]

NAUI == Association of divers

PADI == Corporation privately owned
sdm

 

[BoltSnap]

He went to Domican Republic , paid $500 to a NAUI course director for a card,
and came back as a NAUI instructor. This soured me on agencies that allow their course directors certify instructors without an examiner who has nothing to gain or lose if a candidate passes or fails.

I can't comment on the credibility of your story but the NAUI CD is equivalent to PADI's IE or "Instructor Examiner." The NAUI Instructor Trainer (IT) is equivalent to PADI's "Course Director." In other words, the NAUI CD is the one that conducts the final evaluation on the instructor candidate's status, pass/fail.

Naui is no better than PADI and PADI is no better than naui.

PADI is certainly better in marketing and cranking out divers but NAUI is superior when it comes to training especially from the master diver level and up, in particular leadership training. I am an instructor for 4 agencies btw and I teach exclusively NAUI now.

 

[scrane]

Who cares. Whatever is cheaper and more convenient.
I have certifications from both organisations and I have no preference.

 

[TMHeimer]

Not true about PADI instructor required to certify when all skills tested and completed. If student cannot perform skill in a smooth (stress free) repeatable manner they have not demonstrated mastery and should not be certified. I have had no problem failing a student that I find unable to do skills in a satisfactory manner. Naui is no better than PADI and PADI is no better than naui. All dependent on instructor and how he/ she conducts the course. I am speaking as an instructor teaching over 40 years for 3 different agencies . One thing I find with PADI is at an I.E. The examiner is from a different area than candidates and does not know them, this ensures no favoritism . Example: I had a divemaster candidate that I would not pass, I failed him. Could not do skills correctly. He went to Domican Republic , paid $500 to a NAUI course director for a card,
and came back as a NAUI instructor. This soured me on agencies that allow their course directors certify instructors without an examiner who has nothing to gain or lose if a candidate passes or fails.

Agree with all you say. By "(stress free) repeatable manner", do you interpret that to mean that the student must at least do the skill twice? I don't recall seeing this with the dozen or so instructors I assisted. I do think they were all at least "good' instructors. Of course if the student had problems with a skill I saw them (and helped them) work on it until it was smooth.
Perhaps "repeatable" means the student did it smoothly enough that it is assumed a second or 3rd attempt would be likewise?

---Mr. Nitpicky.

 

[BoltSnap]

Who cares. Whatever is cheaper and more convenient.

People who want quality and better training, care a great deal. "Cheaper" is just that, cheap. When I want to do any type of training, I am doing it to become better in what I do and want the best training available, price is last factor I think about when comparing training programs. If it isn't the best, I don't want it.

 

[scrane]

People who want quality and better training, care a great deal. "Cheaper" is just that, cheap. When I want to do any type of training, I am doing it to become better in what I do and want the best training available, price is last factor I think about when comparing training programs. If it isn't the best, I don't want it.

Well, if you don't like my answer there's 64 pages of alternatives.
If you believe that one is demonstratively superior to the other I look forward to your one word reply.

 

[Bob DBF]

NAUI Instructors can hold back a certification if they feel that the student is not competent, even if all skills are complete.

Not true about PADI instructor required to certify when all skills tested and completed. If student cannot perform skill in a smooth (stress free) repeatable manner they have not demonstrated mastery and should not be certified. I have had no problem failing a student that I find unable to do skills in a satisfactory manner.

It isn't just about skills performed. In my case it was a NAUI/PADI class in 1980, I was informed of a number of criteria, having nothing to do with OW training or skills, that I had to fulfil in order to receive an OW card, probably due to my diving experience prior to OW, although he never mentioned that. One of the skills he required of everyone was good judgement, and he was teaching and testing that constantly. I took the PADI cert, at the time, it was cheaper and I was strapped. When PADI required testing only on skills, he dropped PADI. Because he was training divers for NorCal diving, he did not think the skills PADI required were sufficient for two new divers to dive the North coast.

Not to say every NAUI instructor teaches like that, but that one did.


Bob

 

[Scoo]

I am wary to make this my first post on SB, but somehow I found this thread first when researching a topic, and found the whole discussion very interesting, even if the read-through was a bit of a slog at points... So I am posting this here because the thread provides context for my own thought process—even though I have some questions that I think are related by tangential to the discussion. Please forgive me if I break etiquette by posting here.

At any rate, I’m a PADI AOW diver with about 10 years of experience across relatively few dives (75 or so). I’ve been fortunate to dive in many locations, under warm water conditions mostly, with varying degrees of current, depth, and other sorts of conditions (night, wreck, blue water). All (almost) of my dives have been guided, up until a very recent (right now) visit to Bonaire.

Before coming to Bonaire, my wife and I (she is also PADI AOW, but seems to have taken the YMCA course and has a NAUI OW card. This thread prompted me to ask her about it) did a few shore dives in Cayman, and loved the independence that it gave to the diving experience. We definitely wanted more, and ended up here in Bonaire for a week and have been having a great time.

And yet... Even before coming here (both Bonaire and to SB), I had begun to question whether our training was sufficient to start making a habit of independent pair diving. I discussed it with my wife, and we decided to make the decision after this visit.

All of this backstory is to set up a premise that relates to this thread. After reading this thread in its entirety, and talking to my wife about her certification experience (which was over months in a Summer when she was 18), I am coming to a more definitive realization that my training is incomplete. That is to say, if we wanted to keep diving as an independent couple, or even lag behind a group on a boat dive, we need to be certified Rescue Divers. Perhaps my wife was ready straight out of her class 30 years ago, but given what she remembers and I never learned, I believe that this is the prudent thing to do, and to not do this while making a habit of this kind of diving would actually be irresponsible.

My impression from this thread is that the PADI coursework contains the contents of the earlier YMCA courses, but broken up into pieces all the way through rescue diver, and possibly some material only in some of the specialties? Is that accurate?

Now coming to PADI messaging surrounding this topic. Inasmuch as PADI is a monolith, and I think it is well established in this thread that they are the closest agency to fit this description—it is certainly something they appear to be striving for, consistency—they seem to speak with two mouths when it comes to diving without a guide. On the one hand, their marketing material would suggest that a basic OW course with them prepares you for most anything you want to do. Go ahead and do it—just have a buddy. On the other hand, most actual PADI dive professionals disabuse people pretty strongly from unguided diving right out of the gate. I’ve heard that on more than one occasion, and it seems like sound advice.

And yet, here in Bonaire, this gap in messaging vs. reality seems consequential. I can’t seem to throw a rock without meeting someone who has damaged their eardrum on an uncontrolled ascent or descent. Mostly fresh divers who made a mistake on a shore dive. We met a couple who came here right after getting their PADI OW C-cards. They had a great time and no injuries, but they also had the sense to stay away from some of the more challenging dives, so good for them.

Reading the recent boat dive accident in the accidents forum where the diver had an IPE, and was rescued by their buddy—is it fair to put a point on the NAUI loved one standard and say, “Is this diver prepared to save my loved ones life?” Or do we shrug and put that on the DM? Buddy, know enough not to kill or injure my loved one through ignorance or neglect...

So with that narrative summary of my thoughts having read this thread, I want to pose questions related to the original topic.

• In your minds, as dive professionals, what does the PADI OW course (and hell, include AOW if you want) prepare someone to do? I focus on this one because it is standardized and seems to be the most uniformly defined.
• At what point of independence for a diver (pair) is it irresponsible NOT to get rescue certified?
• Are the PADI OW+AOW+Rescue certifications complete? (In that they prepare people for unguided dives once they assess the risks and conditions—probably with a guide or checkout dive of some kind) If so, what does that include? Any gaps in the course, or areas of particular concern? Does the self-diver course fill those gaps?
• For someone with a “McDonalds” certification, up to what many agencies are calling AOW these days, and with limited rescue diver material, what is the most complete and relevant rescue diver course to take? Does any particular one stand out as comprehensive?
• What is the best way to refresh this knowledge for once-a-year divers?
• Related to the above, any good reference books to help us refresh our knowledge base?
• One aspect not discussed much in this thread is the specifics of AOW courses, which seem to be focused on getting people familiar with a wider set of dive conditions. Was this something that was attempted to be covered in the original 100 hour YMCA courses, or was it always acknowledged that experience and additional training for varying conditions was necessary (to wit—the NAUI stance that allows instructors to add material could be viewed as a necessary freedom to allow the OW course to be tailored to local conditions.)?

I have some opinions on the above questions, but would love to hear insight from those of you with much more experience than I. If it will help you answer these questions for me personally, right now I am seriously considering putting us on track for an SEI Master Diver Level 4 certification.