PADI vs NAUI

[The Chairman]

This is a strange answer to the question of what C-card training prepares someone to do. “It depends on the instructor” gives me no way to make any risk-informed decisions about what my training prepared me to do.

Strange? Possibly, but accurate nonetheless. Remember: you're trained by the instructor and not the agency. The instructor chooses the agency while you choose the instructor. Agencies give us the minimum standards that we have to teach to and most of them are quite similar. They are written in a way that allows us to meet those standards in many different ways, so most instructors add to their courses, many without realizing it. Taking the same course, under the same agency from two different instructors could easily yield two wildly dissimilar experiences and skill sets. Here's an obvious difference: kneeling. No agency requires that students learn while kneeling on the bottom of the pool, and yet it is a very common practice. Instructors who make their students kneel are adding this to their class. A tiny number of us see how kneeling is so very detrimental to learning trim and buoyancy, so we teach the entire class in proper trim off the floor. Results? To date, I've never had a student who has injured their ears after their class. They come out of class with superior trim and buoyancy to the point that they are ready to head into a cavern class. I've had other OW instructors, some teaching for the same agency, ask me what course I was teaching when they saw me in the pool. I'm rather proud that my OW class doesn't look like most of the others. My entire course is about removing fear from the Scuba experience by putting the diver in control.

So yes, there are some differences between the various agencies. I only teach OW through NASE because they encourage me to teach neutral as well as require no vertical CESA in OW. However, the differences between the instructors for any particular agency are far more extreme. Attitude, knowledge, skills and more all make these instructors different from each other. I'll post this again: You're trained by the instructor and not the agency. The instructor chooses the agency while you choose the instructor. Choose your instructor wisely. They'll have already chosen the agency that serves them best.

 

[Scoo]

I think it depends on how much you are willing to put in rather than the agency. Now we have an op and some of the least skilled divers might be 500+ but they have just been practicing the same poor skills and think they Posiden in his prime.

There are a lot of variables other than the agency—and maybe those Poseidon creatures are not open to learning new things. It is also possible that they were never taught properly and are poor at learning by watching others, and could benefit from better instruction, no?

And yet is the most accurate.

Agencies give guidelines (standards) to conduct the class, theoretically all the classes will be conducted to the same level. However, it is the instructor to decide how he conducts the class and how seriously he meets or exceeds the standards. Some do not even meet standards, and since there is no quality control, the agency has no idea how low a bar their classes are taught unless there is a complaint or casualty.

I appreciate the candor and honesty of the response. Some orgs do appear to have QC in their org chart though. And I think that the instructor’s choice of agency may reflect on their values and priorities as an instructor—so asking about the agencies I think it still relevant for a diver looking for training.

I tell students, first meeting, that certification means you should be able to plan, execute a dive with your buddy, without input from a dive pro. Anything else you are doing a "trust me dive" following a dive leader around on a dive.

Good advice. But for me, as one starts diving with no DM around, I start to ask myself, “Do I really know how to deal with anything that might go wrong on this dive?” I will concede there is room for opinion here, but if I am diving alone (with a buddy) and this makes up a significant number of my dives, rescue diver makes sense to me not because it is fun, but because it will hopefully make us more prepared for contingencies.

A class considered very solid is GUE Fundamentals, GUE has a reputation for ensuring the level of instruction. I have no connection, but am thinking of taking it. Being in control in the water, Buoyancy/Trim/Propulsion, is a base to operating safely. It is getting more emphasis, including in standards. But with an instructor that does not believe in them, it is entirely possible to do all of OW/AOW/Rescue with no clue of them. Teachers that also teach technical diving are more likely to provide this properly.

Some Master scuba diver rating are just recognition of some number of dives and classes. Others, NAUI, are a specific class.

Rescue is always a good idea. Right after AOW might be a bit soon, but 75 dives is amble experience and more than time that you should take it.

Solo/Self Reliant rated is likely a good mark of an independent diver (or dive pair). But the skills for it are not something you would learn in its few class dives. For control in the water, Buoyancy/Trim/Propulsion, an intro to tech or cavern class could be good. From a tech diver or cave diver, not just someone that 'can teach it'. Not to take them for any increase in depth, or actually cavern/cave diving, but for their attention to control.

Thanks for your perspective on more of my questions. I’ve been looking at GUE—It looks like if I were to do it, I might have to travel for it, but there is a course coming up in Virginia, Virginia. I’ll have to find out where that is. They do seem very focused on gear—perhaps that’s not really emphasized until the tech courses they offer after the Fundamentals.

For rescue, do any courses stand out? The “DRAM course or equivalent” requirement for SEI is not entirely clear what that means. SEI also is one of the few agencies where the “master” level training seems to include actual training other than specialties. They say it is DM without the teaching.

That and UTD Essentials (I took fundies). I recommend whatever is closer. believe that of the mainstream agencies, only RAID and SNSI have objective standards like the DIR agencies. These are agencies I'm watching. I wish them both tremendous success.

I’ll check them out. Being in Washington, DC I may be limited in what I can find locally.

You're trained by the instructor and not the agency. The instructor chooses the agency while you choose the instructor. Choose your instructor wisely. They'll have already chosen the agency that serves them best.

I can choose both, within my means to travel, location, and other factors. Thanks for your honesty—It it good to know that there is high variability or instructors and no quality control in some agencies.

 

[Bob DBF]

Some orgs do appear to have QC in their org chart though. And I think that the instructor’s choice of agency may reflect on their values and priorities as an instructor—so asking about the agencies I think it still relevant for a diver looking for training.

I would guess it depends on what the QC is for, making sure materials and procedures are written properly is different than insuring the instructor is training the students properly.

Learning about the agencies may be a good thing, however if you use the information to "choose sides" you may very well overlook the best instructor in your area.



Bob

 

[MichaelMc]

I’ve been looking at GUE—It looks like if I were to do it, I might have to travel for it, but there is a course coming up in Virginia, Virginia. I’ll have to find out where that is. They do seem very focused on gear—perhaps that’s not really emphasized until the tech courses they offer after the Fundamentals.

GUE requires backplate, long hose and necklace, rigid non-split fins for even single tank fundamentals. Yet that is a setup very applicable to rec. diving. It is very popular on SB. GUE is not the only group to learn from, just they apparently do a good job at getting the fundaments right. I'd read some of the fundamentals threads and also the 'what should I take in AOW' threads.

Bob is likely right, if you bother to teach rescue, you likely work at doing it well. I don't know anything about SEI.

Most classes, and exposure to better divers, might best be looked at as a chance to see possibly better ways of doing stuff and get feedback on how you are doing, improvements from which you try out then, but also take home, reflect on, and try to apply more fully to your diving. Mapping a path of say 5 classes over a short period that will leave no gaps in your knowledge may not be successful. Particularly if you're ignoring the instructor component.

Some class X from agency Y in city far away may read as the most optimal class. But if Sally near you teaches the less optimal reading Z class from agency W and does a rock star job that you can learn a ton from, then taking Sally's class now and then going diving instead of class X in 5 months is likely the better plan. Plus you can always still take X in 5 months and from a higher skill base.

 

[The Chairman]

It it good to know that there is high variability or instructors and no quality control in some agencies.

All agencies have "quality control". No agency, in my humble opinion, has a great follow through on their QC. GUE probably does the best job in that regard, but that's a class I would not want to teach (or take). After that, all the other agencies are about the same and you can find horrible instructors mixed right in the great ones in each agency. You can drink the Koolaid of any agency's marketing efforts and think they're "really the best". Most of us will simply roll our eyes at the naivety.

There's a phenomenon in the industry that I try to avoid: "If I don't teach it, sell it or dive it, it must be junk and I just don't like junk." They'll be quick to point out all these mythical problems with each agency, and just how their agency is so superior. BS. Utter BS. If you enjoy that kind of ego driven schlock, then by all means, jump right in.

 

[mbwilliamn]

Remember: you're trained by the instructor and not the agency. The instructor chooses the agency while you choose the instructor.

A tiny number of us see how kneeling is so very detrimental to learning trim and buoyancy, so we teach the entire class in proper trim off the floor. Results? To date, I've never had a student who has injured their ears after their class.

I've had other OW instructors, some teaching for the same agency, ask me what course I was teaching when they saw me in the pool. I'm rather proud that my OW class doesn't look like most of the others. My entire course is about removing fear from the Scuba experience by putting the diver in control.

However, the differences between the instructors for any particular agency are far more extreme. Attitude, knowledge, skills and more all make these instructors different from each other. I'll post this again: You're trained by the instructor and not the agency. The instructor chooses the agency while you choose the instructor. Choose your instructor wisely. They'll have already chosen the agency that serves them best.

Great comments all. Between my son and I we cover SSI, PADI, NAUI and TDI. Second and third the "it's not the agency". Just this weekend I saw an instructor with a student (or guided dive) BOTH standing on the bottom of the ocean. Yep and instructor standing on the bottom.

I also teach neutral - not in any manual - but the difference in comfort and skill is amazing at dive 4. When I have a 12 year old who can R&R his gear off while drifing down the reef on dive 4, I think I've done it right.

 

[María he]

From the side of a consumer, PADI or Naui? I would not know the difference. 33 yrs ago an old Naui instructor taught at a University setting , we swam 10 laps (Olympic pool) and had to tread for 10 min before every class, had rescue training with real victims feigning incapacity.In the 30 ft diving tank you had to jump in and don your mask ,belt , fins, vest and tank. Kept my tank between my legs and took breaths as needed. Jumped in that pool like a lady with too many groceries and no cart. Sank like a rock, took my time putting everything on. Instructor jumped in( he thought I was taking too long). I was young, I put him on a pedestal- he was the BEST instructor!! Bigger than life. I’ll always remember him. Naui or PADI not important, it who is teaching, and do you feel confident and comfortable at the end of your course.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

From the side of a consumer, PADI or Naui? I would not know the difference. 33 yrs ago an old Naui instructor taught at a University setting , we swam 10 laps (Olympic pool) and had to tread for 10 min before every class, had rescue training with real victims feigning incapacity.In the 30 ft diving tank you had to jump in and don your mask ,belt , fins, vest and tank. Kept my tank between my legs and took breaths as needed. Jumped in that pool like a lady with too many groceries and no cart. Sank like a rock, took my time putting everything on. Instructor jumped in( he thought I was taking too long). I was young, I put him on a pedestal- he was the BEST instructor!! Bigger than life. I’ll always remember him. Naui or PADI not important, it who is teaching, and do you feel confident and comfortable at the end of your course.

Except the stuff your NAUI instructor was teaching was in addition to the open water performance requirements. You can't do that with PADI. That's one of the great things about NAUI. There is a difference in framework, so agency does matter. If an instructor for an agency that allows/encourages adding requirements doesn't do so, then it doesn't matter.

 

[Allison Finch]

Except the stuff your NAUI instructor was teaching was in addition to the open water performance requirements. You can't do that with PADI. That's one of the great things about NAUI. There is a difference in framework, so agency does matter. If an instructor for an agency that allows/encourages adding requirements doesn't do so, then it doesn't matter.

Maybe by today's standards, but not when I got certified in 1970. The training was very detailed and a bit tough.

Many of today's divers would never pass what was taught as necessary knowledge then.

 

[scubadada]

Msybe by today's standards, but not when I got certified in 1970. The training was very detailed and a bit tough.

Many of today's divers would never pass what was taught as necessary knowledge then.

LA County Underwater Unit, 1970. Not only necessary knowledge, but watermanship skills.