PADI vs SDI

[fisherdvm]

I don't know. It takes a long time to be comfortable with a stick. I mean, if you lived in San Francisco, you'd be competent in driving a stick within a week. Those 45 degree incline at the stop sign, it is kinda like, swim or die....

But if you lived in the flat land like Iowa.... You'd never be faced with an incline tough enough to test your skill with the parking brake, foot on accelerator, and one foot on the clutch deal. Most drivers in the US has enough distraction - cell phone, text messaging, putting on make up, etc... They can't be over tasked with a manual transmission.

 

[tedtim]

....Most drivers in the US has enough distraction - cell phone, text messaging, putting on make up, etc... They can't be over tasked with a manual transmission.

Thank goodnes you guys don't have Tim Horton's.

 

[stimpy4242]

The student quickly realizes that there are many different computers out there and they don't all work the same way. Renting a computer every time will frustrate a diver, when that person can't figure out the different nuances.

Come on, now I think people are stretching things to try and make a point. The people that are taking classes these days know how to use computers without a problem and just like there are different computers, there are different tables...Does that mean the tables are bad, using your same logic? Offthewall1 is right and people are just afraid to see change. Tables were there because computers were not. A computer is the same as a table, just more advanced. Computers are based off the same information that a table is based off of, remember the table isn't the beginning...they are just a nice representation of the theories that Haldane and others were working.

I think its funny, because 10 years from now, even less perhaps, no agency will teach tables. They will be a picture in the book showing how we have advanced and what we use. People are just afraid of change.

 

[GrimSleeper]

Wow, all that 'debate', all that 'PADI are rubbish', and what it apparently comes down to is that the PADI Open Water course teaches one MORE thing than SDI, which is table use... Go figure!

If students have learned how to use the tables, they at least should have some sense of what their dive computer is actually doing when it calculates that little number in the middle of the screen. And if they choose to take their dive education further, say to DM or into deep air or mixed gas diving, do you want to teach students who have only ever used a computer and have no idea what it actually does, or would you rather they had at least used tables a few times before?

To keep stretching that transmission analogy, you have to actually DRIVE a stick shift, whereas with an automatic you can put the car into cruise control and your brain into neutral. Which one sounds like a description of the way you'd like to see people dive?

I usually get my OW students using a computer on dives 3 and 4, because I want them to know how to use one before I send them off into the cruel, cruel world where otherwise they'll like as not end up following a DM who thinks he's immortal and the limits aren't for him. But dive tables, I think, give people a clearer mental picture of the relationships between depth, time and inert gas loading, and there's no way I'd stop teaching them.

 

[divebunny13]

I love discussions like this because I learn a lot about the industry and standards of other agencies. I am a PADI instructor but I have been PADI since OW so I wasn't aware of a lot of this stuff.

What agency has the bailout as a skill? The owner of my dive school made all divemaster candidates do it before they could get certified as DM's because the owner had seen too many professionals who were NOT comfortable in the water. I found out from my CD during IDC that this completely broke PADI standards but I was really happy after I did the bailout on my first try...

 

[rrrru4ril]

You know the first question of the uninformed is about the price of the class. When an instructor doesn't teach the tables, the price of the class seems to decrease. That instructor figures they are spending less time teaching, so everyone benefits.

Just one of the downsides is the fact that some of the people in the class are too cheap to rent or buy the proper gear when they get out of the class. They'll get gauges and they won't have a clue how to use them properly. Spending money on computers is a wasted expense in their mind. The instructor/agency should be ashamed of the problem they just created.

If you want, you can call all of your local LDS's and see if they use gauges on their rental equipment, or is there an additional charge for computers. If you strictly dive in the Carribean, that's where you should check.

The reasons for teaching the tables are soundly endorsed. Teaching people how to use a computer is fine, but the student needs to realize that the tables are for a lot more important than just for historical purposes.

The student quickly realizes that there are many different computers out there and they don't all work the same way. Renting a computer every time will frustrate a diver, when that person can't figure out the different nuances. So, they quickly learn that purchasing their own computer is their only option. Now that cheap in class just became a moot point, because they can't dive safely without that crutch. albeit a useful crutch. If you are trained properly, you can still dive safely without a computer.

I can't speak to PADI courses as I took an SDI course. Needless to say, the discussion of Nitrogen loading in the SDI OW course discussed it in detail and discussed the effects of pressurization vice nitrogen absorption and bubble formation as one ascends, etc. So the rate of nitrogen intake was discussed but tables were not introduced at that time. Computers were and we did our pool dives with a non-pressure integrated dive computer and a separate analog pressure gauge. We were taught to watch the pressure gauge and the computer closely as they track two separate things. The computer tracks nitrogen absorption, determines no-deco limits and tracks temp and depth and time. And yes they state that each student should purchase a dive computer. They also have a chapter on tables, but it isn't taught in depth.

I purchased a pressure integrated dive computer because I like the backup of a warning if my pressure drops too low. I have no intention of depending on that alarm and have not utilized that as I closely monitor pressure as I dive as any good diver should and that was also how I was taught. The use of dive computers I think is great. And yes I think divers should understand the physics underlying the dive computations. I am not sure tables are the only way, but they are definitely one way. I think of dive computers as providing a more detailed computation of the underlying theories of nitrogen absorption to maximize my dive experience with sufficient safety margin to make it a bit conservative. It also serves as alerting device of last resort if I do something dumb to remind me what I need to do. I hope to never utilize those features and have not in the dives I've done so far. Regardless, I am sure both agencies, SDI and PADI teach fundamentals of Nitrogen absorption, the question is what are you comfortable with and to what degree do you need to understand the physics of nitrogen absorption. SDI does provide an intuitive understanding, introduces dive tables and runs through a simple set of dives. I like that approach, emphasizing computers for SDI with table review and PADI with explicit table exploration and teaching and some minimal computer review. Take your pick, both are fine as I understand it, I do prefer the SDI approach but others may like the table centric approach. No big deal, at least that's my opinion.

 

[sweatfrog]

Come on, now I think people are stretching things to try and make a point. The people that are taking classes these days know how to use computers without a problem and just like there are different computers, there are different tables...Does that mean the tables are bad, using your same logic?.

Talk about a stretch, I never said computers were bad! It would definately lessen the valuable time spent with students, if the Instructor quit teaching the tables. Now explain how to get into the memory for the Oceanic, Suunto, Uwatec, Dive Rite, etc. computer. Because the buttons on each one accomplish different things in a different manner.

Maybe the student just buys the one that they are using. That's great, but they have been shortchanged by not realizing that computer won't do what they want, down the road.

Tables were there because computers were not. A computer is the same as a table, just more advanced. Computers are based off the same information that a table is based off of, remember the table isn't the beginning...they are just a nice representation of the theories that Haldane and others were working.

Tables and computers are formulated from mathematical formulas. The technology of computers has evolved over the years. There was a computer available from Scubapro back in the 70's.

Decompression theory is continually evolving. One of the most recent changes is the advent of dopplers. That's one thing we seem to agree on.

I think its funny, because 10 years from now, even less perhaps, no agency will teach tables. They will be a picture in the book showing how we have advanced and what we use.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Electronics and water don't mix and at some point the computer will flood. For computers to become the standard, each diver will need three computers, so voting logic can be appropriately applied and when a battery dies, or the computer floods the diver has backup.

I usually get my OW students using a computer on dives 3 and 4, because I want them to know how to use one before I send them off into the cruel, cruel world where otherwise they'll like as not end up following a DM who thinks he's immortal and the limits aren't for him. But dive tables, I think, give people a clearer mental picture of the relationships between depth, time and inert gas loading, and there's no way I'd stop teaching them.

A logical thing to do. I love it when people come back from their vacation after using the DM's computer to monitor their dive. Those experts (drips under pressure) make good money on tips, by herding the cats on those dives.

 

[Scubakevdm]

I love discussions like this because I learn a lot about the industry and standards of other agencies. I am a PADI instructor but I have been PADI since OW so I wasn't aware of a lot of this stuff.

What agency has the bailout as a skill? The owner of my dive school made all divemaster candidates do it before they could get certified as DM's because the owner had seen too many professionals who were NOT comfortable in the water. I found out from my CD during IDC that this completely broke PADI standards but I was really happy after I did the bailout on my first try...

PADI has never prevented me from teaching my students how to dive very, very well. I think that as you spend more and more time in the industry you'll see that there are lots of folks that are perping all kinds of BS so that they can attend to their own agendas. Parts of the industry are very ugly, but luckily we can choose not to be involved with them. Don't let people get you down with their anti-PADI-ism.

As far as the extra ciricular stuff with your instructor and the bailout drills go I think that it's only a standards violation if he required the skill in order to complete the course, however... as soon as he deviated from the PADI course requirements, even if he said "Hey, you guys can learn how to do this if you want to." he was pretty much out on his own as far as exposure to liability if there was an accident then, or if there is an accident in the future resulting from someone attempting the non-PADI skill.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Wow, all that 'debate', all that 'PADI are rubbish', and what it apparently comes down to is that the PADI Open Water course teaches one MORE thing than SDI, which is table use... Go figure!

Exactly my point.

We have computers on all of our rental gear, but that doesn't mean that it's not neccessary or worthwhile to teach the tables. Beyond the redundancy aspect, learning to use the tables incorporates planning as a part of every dive before the diver enters the water. There is a proccess in which thought dedicated to what is about to happen.

 

[stimpy4242]

Now explain how to get into the memory for the Oceanic, Suunto, Uwatec, Dive Rite, etc. computer. Because the buttons on each one accomplish different things in a different manner.

Yeah but they all seem to display the NDL on them without doing anything and that is all a table does, well actually it displays a bunch of NDLs and you need to figure out which one is yours.

Maybe the student just buys the one that they are using. That's great, but they have been shortchanged by not realizing that computer won't do what they want, down the road.

Thats both the students fault as a consumer for not answering question and the salespersons fault for not knowing their product.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Electronics and water don't mix and at some point the computer will flood. For computers to become the standard, each diver will need three computers, so voting logic can be appropriately applied and when a battery dies, or the computer floods the diver has backup.

This is the argument someone who can't handle change makes. Its funny how some computers are water cooled...amazing concept. I guess electronics and computers really don't mix. Wait you are typing to me on a computer too, but that is unheard of...imagine that technology advancing...Woah, amazing that the military uses these big tube like things under the water to do stuff...what are those called, oh submarines...amazing....

And you don't think that they can figure out how to keep pathetic divers from worrying about their NDLs using a computer??? Come on...