Perceived value and can lights

[lairdb]

Okay, this is a little theoretical, but I'm very curious, and I think the population that hangs out here in "Lights" will have the right background to answer.

To me, as a product designer (not scuba -- different field), I look at the two pictures below and I see

- one product that looks like something I could make in my machine shop without much trouble; off the shelf parts, nothing molded, some stuff machined from stock, several parts forced into roles they weren't designed for.

- one product that looks like a "real product", molded parts, considerable thought in the design, no extraneous bits hanging off, no make-do, etc. -- a real product with startup investment behind it, not a hobby result trying to be a business.


Functionally, they're not dead identical, but they're fairly close in most ways for most folks. Yet, judging from traffic, there are three people who own the Sollys product for every eight thousand who own the Halcyon product.

As a buyer of this class of product, what is it that drives you to the first, instead of the second?

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Track Record. Before buying my Helios 13.5, I dove with many people who use Halcyon lights. I also had experience with other Halcyon products and was quite pleased. Finally, when I was looking around at lights, Cory at Halcyon spent about 1/2 hour answering my questions. He did so in an objective manner, telling me the good and bad points of each product we were discussing.

When it comes to gear that can make or break a dive, such as a can light, I value experience and function over form. I'd rather have a light that works than a light that looks good on my shelf or in a catalog. (I also like the look of the Halcyon.)

In my case, that meant going with Halcyon.

That doesn't mean that the Sollys isn't a good light. However, since I don't know its track record, I'd be hesitant to buy it.

 

[pdoege]

The Sollys light may well be the better light, but the Halcyon name is tied into the entire GUE/WKPP pantheon.

It appears, as tech diving becomes more and more mainstreamed, that the garage designs of yore are being eclipsed.

I imagine that once the big boys start churning out wings, lights, etc. that the little shops will be marginalized.

In any event, just because the product looks better doesn't mean that it actually works better. "Works better" is the bottom line for scuba.

Peter

 

[lamont]

- one product that looks like a "real product", molded parts,

The water doesn't care how the product looks.

considerable thought in the design

Other than "this looks slick", what kind of "considerable thought" is going into the molded plastic design? For example, what "considerable thought" led to ditching the clear top?

And are we looking at the result of people who understand molded plastic but who don't understand diving?

no extraneous bits hanging off,

You mean like those useless little molded plastic loops on the side?

no make-do, etc. -- a real product with startup investment behind it, not a hobby result trying to be a business.

How does any of that help me out underwater? Molded plastic is not solving a problem that exists with a halcyon/salvo light when you are actually diving the thing. At best its just going to annoy me when i try to find replacement parts for it.

Plus, halcyon lights have been 18,000 fsw+ into cave systems. I'll take that over your startup investment cash any day...

That also makes your statement:

several parts forced into roles they weren't designed for.

...smell like complete FUD. It seems that the parts work just fine in the roles they weren't designed for.

 

[PerroneFord]

For me, it comes down to a couple of simple things.

1. The people who make the "garage built" products are divers. They bet their ***** on their gear in the water. I don't mean testing stuff at 60ft in the Caymans. But testing gear in the North Sea, in 300+ft of water 2 miles back in a cave. In scenarios where the developers life is on the line, they believe in their products, as do others who use their gear. This is something I don't think we will see from "the big boys". A Corvette is a nice car. But it's not a Ferrari, and never will be. There will ALWAYS be room for the innovative small guy who builds one or very few products, answers his own phone, and puts his reputation on the line every time he puts one of his products in a box to ship it.

2. Technical divers are much like computer geeks. The "look" of something is immaterial as long as it gets the job done in an efficient and reliable fashion. We don't need fancy molded materials, bright colors, etc. Why do you think tech divers use a metal plate and a $10 piece of fabric to go diving in? If a $1000 piece of gear was clearly better, that's what would be used.

3. Name recognition. Halcyon (as well as Dive Rite, Barry Miller, Apeks, Scuba Pro, etc.) are names that are well regarded because they work. Period. When the crap hits the fan, I don't want to worry about my light. Or my regulator. I just want stuff to work as advertised. People around the world know that Halcyon gear is used EVERY DAY in some of the hardest cave diving and technical diving environments. There is no need for mass advertising. The performance of the product speaks for itself. And when it DOESN'T do well, that community is JUST AS QUICK to toss it under the bus. Like the Scout lights that leak, or the Halcyon inflators that have problems.

If Aqua-Lung releases a crap BC, it gets lost in the shuffle of the dozens they have, and the bad one gets quietly discontinued. If Dive Rite builds a bad wing, the world knows about it within a couple of months.

There is also the idea of personal relationships. The cave diving community is quite small. Many of these products were made by people who had a need. And they furnished copies to others who shared that need. And the list of people grew. To some degree it's still like that. If someone builds a new reel that doesn't jam and works great, is lighter than everyone else's, etc., but it happens to built on some guy's porch, this community doesn't care. Scenario: Bob and Dave dive caves together, and Bob shows up with a new light he made himself and it works better than anything Dave has seen. Dave's gonna have one before long and he's gonna trust it because his buddy built it, and his buddy wouldn't put him in a bad spot. Then Dave shows it to 3-4 other of his dive buddies. And it spreads. Lots of those examples around. FredT, Tobin, Barry Miller, Gavin, etc.

Technical diving is niche market. And you have to market to it that way. Bring in a fancy BS product and it'll fall on its face QUICK. Maybe the Solly product is top rate. I've never heard of it. Tell us more about it. Can you drop it 6 feet onto the concrete like a Barry Miller light and will it work? Can you take it to 400ft and have it work? Can you call up somebody named Solly, and curse him out after it shuts off a mile deep in your cave dive? Will he send you a new one after that?

Works better is the bottom line for TECHNICAL SCUBA. There is crap all around other SCUBA. And some crap even in Tech SCUBA.

"Works better" is the bottom line for scuba.

Peter

 

[Mo2vation]

We travel with this stuff. We dive a lot with it, so it gets knocked around.

* Molded plastic breaks.

* Plastic strain reliefs crack

* Molded plastic isn't modular for quick field swap-out repairs

* Plastic clamp "goodman handles" are toys. They pull off and are almost as worthless as elastic handles

* Molded in belt loops suck. We're all different sizes and would like the canister where we can reach it - not where Toyland Inc. thinks it should be. I want to be able to adjust where it rides vertically on the belt

Leave the clamp-on Badman handles and the shiney molded plastic body nonsense for Dive Rite, Nite Rider and the other "Mattel" lights.

Sollys is a fine entry level HID, but its not even in the same league with the Halcyon, Salvo or Sandhoff stuff. Talk to the many, many people here that started with the Sollys stuff and moved up.

Those Fisher-Price lights fill a great niche for painless entry into the world of HID canister light diving - but so does an eBay'ed Halcyon light for about the same price.

You're comparing apples to raisins.

---
Ken

 

[PerroneFord]

Apples to raisins!! LOL!! Classic!!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

- one product that looks like a "real product", molded parts, considerable thought in the design, no extraneous bits hanging off, no make-do, etc. -- a real product with startup investment behind it, not a hobby result trying to be a business.

I was thinking about this a bit more. It finally occured to me that I had omitted a couple of points.

First, I'm not convinced that incorporated parts into a single piece is a good thing. By way of example, consider the belt strap. On the Halcyon, its a piece of webbing held onto the Delrin cylinder by a couple of radiator clamps. If it wears or gets cut (don't ask me how, just assume that it does), it is easily replaced. Assuming that I'm a bit handy, and have access to a sewing machine, I could even do it myself.

With the Sollys light, the belt strap is molded as part of the canister. If it break, it looks like you might need to purchase a new canister.

The same holds true for the switch. The switch guard on the Sollys is molded into the top of the canister. The Halcyon isn't. This would make the repair easier and, presumably, cleaper.

Other parts of the Helios are also easily servicable. Replacing the reflector takes one minute. Replacing a bulb takes 5 minutes. I'm not sure that this can be said of a twist focus light.

Pretty isn't necessarily better.

Functionally, they're not dead identical, but they're fairly close in most ways for most folks.

There are times when "close enough" might cut it. My primary light source isn't one of those times.

 

[Mo2vation]

Pretty isn't necessarily better.

Rule 6, baby...

---
Ken

 

[Mo2vation]

Your post started with the title: Percieved Value...

I'm in sales & marketing. Its my job to take people from a price objection (the "its too much money") to the value position (the "is it worth all that money...")

There is a huge gaping chasim between price and value. Huge.

If you were to read my posts from 2003, you'd see me just laughing at the clowns paying three (and four) figures for a "flashlight"... I just couldn't get past the price issue.

I eventually moved to the value side of things, and saw that a quality light costs so much because its worth so much. They are tough, they are reliable, they deliver a higher degree of safety to my dives, they deliver a higher degree of enjoyment to my dives, etc, etc. A quality canister light is simply worth the money.

The key, like with anything, is buying right. I've never owned a "new" light. Never. I've saved hundreds of dollars buying right.

But to your original question - a question of "percieved value" - you've clearly never held both, seen them side by side, dived with them, dropped them, flooded them, needed service on them, etc. The value, after all of the above will be tipped unquestionably in the favor of the Halcyon, Salvo, Sardhoff lights.

Your actual cost per dive (5 - 10 years into your Halcyon, Salvo, Sardhoff light) will also confirm the value of your wise decision to select the superior product.

---
Ken