Primary or alternate donate poll

Primary or alternate donate

  • Primary

    Votes: 216 74.7%
  • Alternate

    Votes: 73 25.3%

  • Total voters
    289

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Your right. It's not an argument for primary donate. It was a polemic against your argument that divers who wear necklessed secondaries don't check their regulators.
I never argued that divers who use necklaces for their secondaries don't check their regulators. I apologize if I left you with that impression. Every diver should ensure that his/her secondary is in good working order, indeed works when in the water, and is properly stowed and easily accessible at all times, regardless of the method/system used.
 
@Diving Dubai - well said.

You clearly have experience on all those rigs, understand the positives and negatives of each and pick based on what is right for a particular use.

Understanding that it is PRACTISE that makes the difference not the gear is the important thing. Long hose might be better for some but I bet those that are using it properly do S-drills every dive. That is unlike the wannabe long hose user who pick it because it is cool but don't understand the logic behind it.

As a number of posters have said, SB is not representative of most divers. Very few make it to the internet, less make it to forums and even fewer make it to SB. That means those that have found SB are likely FAR more motivated than 95-99% of divers out there. Like it or not, most divers out there are vacation divers who likely never see gear from one year to the next. Practising air share? Don't make me laugh - they can barely control their descent/ascend and buoyancy never mind while task loaded.

A long hose, recreational set up makes no sense for me - I only ever dive with people who have traditional rigs. To move to long hose means I would have the issue EVERY dive of trying to explain what it was, how it is used and what to do in the event of a problem.

If I may, good points made, although I think the few seconds it takes to say “ if you’re out of air, I will give you the reg out of my mouth” is more than doable for the benefits of the long hose.

I show my students the differences when sharing air from a long hose vs a standard set up and the benefits are apparent right away, even to beginners.
 
From those it would appear that PADI must be allowing Primary Donate.

Since I am disabled I asked PADI HQ about the standards for a few things, and I found that PADI rarely spells out exactly what is required, and allows quite a bit of flexibility about what is taught. Which is both good and bad.
 
A long hose, recreational set up makes no sense for me - I only ever dive with people who have traditional rigs. To move to long hose means I would have the issue EVERY dive of trying to explain what it was, how it is used and what to do in the event of a problem.
Because it would take at least three seconds to tell someone to take the reg from your mouth?
 
I was a transplant to the area, and came into the current shop I use as a seasoned diver. To meet folks, I decided to take some advanced classes. It was at my MSD classes that the instructor took the opportunity to ridicule my configuration of long hose/bungied alternate, using his authority position to substantiate his beliefs. Thing is, when we went to do some of the various drills, each person I partnered with ended up really liking the primary donate/long hose over the configuration they had been trained to follow through the shop.

It was only in a Rescue Class, taught by a cave diver, that things changed. He was actually thrilled to see my configuration, and showed up the next session with his similar rig. He tested me by asking me to explain and demonstrate my kit to the other students...
 
What do we advise our Recreational brethren? Do we accept that "primary donate is just a Scubaboard thing!"?
I don't. I started with an Air2 and have changed to a necklaced octo. I want the "occasional divers" to hear why, and decide for themselves. IMO, diving with an Air2 as an occasional diver is an unacceptable increase in task loading in an emergency.

The occasional divers are probably not reading the thread, their LDS has warned them away.

My reason for the bungeed backup is a bit different. Walking across the "beach", sand from the size of ones head to a car, I slipped and fell. As I'm lying there, head down between a couple of rocks looking at the water a few feet away. So as I'm resting and checking myself for damage before trying to get up, I'm thinking what if my head was in the water. I was fine, made the dive, but I decided to try other configurations. I now wear a bungeed backup and I can, with a bit of work, get it in my mouth without my hands.

And yes I've taught a fair few divers who've adopted LH and spent an awful long time teaching them the correct AS procedure, because they've brought the kit to look cool, not taken any proper training or if they have then certainly not practiced.

My cynicism regarding Rec and LH is well earned

Unfortunatly, that's a side effect of trying to be a cool kid, regardless.

Smothers Brothers Streets of Lorado

As I walked out on the streets of Laredo,
As I walked out in Laredo one day,
I spied a young cowboy all wrapped in white linen
Wrapped in white linen as cold as the clay.

I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy;
I see by your outfit you are a cowboy, too;
We see by our outfits that we are both cowboys.
If you get an outfit, you can be a cowboy, too

My issue is when people think that the gear makes the diver. It doesn't.

...its the diving skills that impress, not the gear type or config

I've seen some divers that have really impressed me, it would take a while to remember what gear they wearing at the time.


Bob
 
I found the following on PADI's gear information

From those it would appear that PADI must be allowing Primary Donate.​
To be perfectly clear:

PADI has 'allowed' primary donate for quite some time. It may not be the primary teaching approach that many instructors pursue, but there is NOTHING in PADI standards, or Performance Requirements that precludes it.

Any Instructor who claims that primary donate is NOT allowed in PADI training is misinformed (or, worse, uninformed).

The training standards actually allow, as an alternate air source, use of a pony bottle. You DO NOT have to donate YOUR primary second stage, you DO NOT have to donate YOUR alternate second stage; you can donate a second stage from a pony bottle. I don't do that in OW (I DO use primary donate in my private OW classes), but it is perfectly acceptable.

Likewise, PADI allows passive donation of a second stage, PADI allows active donation of a second stage, although the emphasis, since revision of the OW program some 5 years ago, is on active donation.

Now, where some confusion may develop: many shops encourage standardization of training across instructors, which actually makes good sense. But, many Instructors, not unlike many divers, have no experience with primary donate. (And, these Instructors are not necessarily 'old farts' by any means.) They also have no experience with a long hose primary / bungeed necklace alternate regulator configuration, either, although that configuration is not essential for primary donate. As a consequence, those shops may elect to teach, as the standard approach to alternate air source use, the donation of an air source other than the donor's primary. Some shops may understandably be reluctant to move away from what many perceive to be a 'standard' regulator configuration: a 32 - 36" primary second stage hose, and a longer - 40" - alternate second stage hose. But, that set-up can be easily adapted to primary donate simply by using the (often, yellow) longer hose as the primary, and putting the shorter hose second stage on a bungee necklace.

It is always fascinating to see what is perceived as a PADI 'will allow' / 'won't allow' issue, but which is in reality an Instructor preference (or ability) issue, or a shop practice.
 
You may have misunderstood my intent
I have and dive, 2 BP/W rigs, a SM rig and Jacket. I'm a big fan of BP/W and I would encourage someone to consider it

My issue is when people think that the gear makes the diver. It doesn't

I followed your intent Diving Dubai, I was simply voicing my frustration in general, not really directly at you.
 
Because it would take at least three seconds to tell someone to take the reg from your mouth?

And often (mostly) divers forget every said on the briefing/surface the moment their fins hit the water

Ask any instructor how unpredictable people can be underwater.

I once had an AoW student with 30 dives, spit their reg out in a panic (for no apparent reason), and refuse my spare and bolt (with me alongside trying to get them to take the reg while getting them to the surface asap)

The one thing I learnt being an instructor is that it doesn't matter how great you think your skills are, or how much experience you have, there will always be another diver that challenges your skills or proves that the impossible is indeed possible
 

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