Private vs. Public Dive Teams

[NudeDiver]

I'm still trying to understand how having a volunteer dive team is fundamentally more difficult to create, manage or otherwise than a volunteer fire & rescue department - of which there are many, many, many throughout the country. What am I missing?

 

[ditch-diver]

As far as the expense for recovering bodies goes..., up here in the great white north, any death that occurs outside of a doctors direct care is considered a homicide until proven otherwise.., the recovery of the body is simply part of an ongoing investigation. I have been on my fair share of recoveries and victims families almost always tell us the same thing.., please do not put anyone in dire risk to recover a body.

I recently went into the local coffee shop for my coffee and bagel (I know, I know.., a cop in a coffee shop ~insert cop/donut shop jokes here~) and when I went to pay a guy came up from behind me and put money on the counter and insisted on paying for me. It turned out he recognized me as being one of the divers who had recovered his son a year or so before. Days like that sure make all the poor weather/poor condition dives worthwhile.

 

[Gary D.]

Here is a recent example of a well trained PSD team vs Divers.

Spokane has a film crew shooting a major movie throughout the city. Last night one of the props broke loose and fell into the river at the base of the falls and near the discharge from the small power plant.

Spokane’s river rescue team arrives thinking they would use the recovery as a training exercise. The take a look and decide it is way too dangerous to try the operation at night and they will return in the early am.

They get there in the morning and the prop is gone. The rescue team is thinking it may have broken loose during the night and floated down stream. But then they find out that some make a name for myself diver went in and did the recovery during the night.

Let’s see, trained professionals decide the Risk vs Benefit is way to dangerous to continue but a lesser trained individual over rides that decision and gets lucky.

Trying to compare one diving style to another is almost useless. Each type of diving, be it Tech, Military, Commercial, Recreational, PSD, Cave or what ever all have their own training, their own objectives, their own gear, their own purpose and reason to exist. Trying to compare one against the other just doesn’t work. It’s like trying to compare a Piper Cub to a 747. They both fly but do it totally different.

It was mentioned earlier that you don’t need Blue Lights to dive. I have to agree that you don’t need them. But in a rescue scenario they are needed if the diver or what ever you want to call them is going to have a chance at getting on scene fast enough to have a chance at saving a victim.

Then there is the issue of how many general divers have their gear set up and ready to go 24-7 and can go from arriving on scene to the water (cold water) in less than three minutes?

When dealing with PSD work there are many things that are not only different but very contradictive to other types of diving especially recreational diving. That alone makes it very unfair to both sides to try and compare them. And to keep your PSD status we need to recert every 3 years. Who else needs to do that?

I went from Recreational to Navy diving and it was Holy Poo, what a difference. Then I went from Navy back to Recreational and then to PSD and it was another Holy Poo I need to learn all over again. The only fair comparison is to do it and not go on what you hear or read about.

On another note.

One of our team members didn’t dive during training yesterday and even left early. After he left we were briefed on what was happening.

His daughter is either a teen or nearing her teen years. She has been diagnosed with a potentially disfiguring and possibly fatal very rare disease. He left early to take her to Seattle for treatment.

I know I don’t have to ask but I’m going to any way. We need prayers guys/gals and lots of them real fast.

Gary D.

 

[NudeDiver]

I think its a fallacy to say it is not reasonable to compare one kind of diving to another. Hell, even in your own post claiming its unreasonable to do this, you made such comparisons (for example, with respect to readiness). For that matter - its such comparisons that help strengthen your case that PSD is different. You can't tell its different, you can't know it is different, unless you compare it to something else. That's how you know it's different!

Also - just because the anon diver you mentioned was not a professional or PSD diver does not mean he is a "lesser trained individual". You have no idea WHAT kind of training he may or may not have had (based on the info in your post). For all you know, he may have had a whole team down there. If nothing else, he may have merely been a "differently trained" diver rather than a "lesser trained individual."

 

[dittrimd]

I think non-PSD's posting in this forum might be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying you cannot make comparisons or have discussions about the differences. That is what this forum is all about in my opinion and how we educate people as to what and how we do what we do. I welcome non-PSD's who want to come in here and post questions or comments about PSD in an effort to learn about what we do. What I am are saying is if you do that you make comparisons you will find there are little to no similarities between PSD and other types of diving. What bothers me is a non-PSD who posts declarative statements about PSD with no actual experience being a PSD. You may know PSD's or even have watched PSD's but it is not the same as actually being and participating in PSD operations or the stuff that happens away from the emergency scene.

Here is what I am trying to illustrate. I am a recreational diver and PSD. I feel that I have the knowledge and experience of both areas to make statements about why even the highest trained recreational diver which I will concede may have much better abilities at deep diving, decompression diving, wreck, cave etc than a PSD is not someone who can just show up and start performing PSD operations. Nor could an unaffiliated group of these individuals form a team and just show up and start PSD operations.

On the other hand I have never been a commercial diver although I know commercial divers and I have learned over the years a lot about commercial diving. I would never make declarative statements about commercial diving that were absolutes. I may pose questions about my impression of commercial diving but they would be open ended with an opportunity for a commercial diver to fill in any gaps or misconceptions. That is what I would expect from non-PSD's who post in this forum. Many people even in my fire department have misconceptions about what it is we do and how we do it. Especially when it comes time to open the purse strings. I am in a constant education mode for anyone I come in contact with who wants to know what we are all about.

My dive team is an all volunteer FD staffed regional dive team that historically has been made up of well trained recreational divers who are volunteer firefighters and want to help thier community. We have never had a fatality or serious injury in over 30 years of existence. We take the same approach to PSD as we do fighting fires or rescue emergencies. It is a safe organized systematic approach that puts the safety of the rescuer about all else. In recent years we have been working to get all our active divers and surface support personnel into some PSD training. We have been looking at the industry and making gear improvements to fall in line with the nationally accepted standards for PSD. All these efforts are met with a lot of resistance in many areas that the average person may not realize. Just being a emergency service professional keeps you very busy with intial training, mandator refresher training and the daily grind of emergency calls. Funding of our primary mission is difficult enough then add in any special operations that are not used a frequenly. HAZMAT, Dive, special rescue and it makes for a tough challenge.

I am not making excuses for these teams that are making their best effort but still pose a hazard to themselves through their own shortcomings. If you have never participated in team meeting where you are trying to overcome this obstacles then you cannot make comments about it.

My hope is that through this forum and other ways we can help to improve conditions for them rather than tell them they should just give up and go back to grappling hooks. Which in many rural areas is their only alternative. I would ask anyone to stand on shore next to a parent of a child that went missing in the water and tell them that there is nothing we can do.

Nude as for Gary's example about the property recovery you missed his point. He was not commenting on this persons diving acumen. He was commenting on his decision making abilities relative to a PSD. PSD's will never put property above life. Our first action in any operation be it rescue or recovery is to assess the risk of a given situation and to do a risk vs. benefit analysis. In this case trained PSD's decided it was too dangerous to risk life to save property. The individual who made the property recovery decided not to wait for whatever reason. He may have been the best diver in the world but it does not matter if he had died trying to recover the property. The fact is he took an unecessary risk for some unknown reason. Did he value the property or the recognition above his own life? We may never know but ultimately his decision making process was flawed.

Think about what the consequences would have been if the PSD team decided to do the recovery at night and something went wrong. There are people in the chain of command who take legal responsibility for the people under their command. A wrong decision means they have to life with that for the rest of their life. In addition there are disciplinary and legal consequences as well. These things don't exist for the private individual who takes it upon himself.

Nude, to answer your question about a volunteer team. We have here in CT a town with a lot of money which does have a volunteer water rescue team separate from their fire department and EMS service. They are highly trained and well funded. The are a part of the towns emergency service and they report to the ranking public safety official. In CT the state laws give the fire chief or ranking fire officer total control of all emergencies that do not involve a crime. All I am saying is that any volunteer team has to be affiliated with a public safety organization in order to perform public safety operations. Everything else is either a club or commercial outfit if they get paid. So the answer to your quesiton is that they could be a PSD team if the were part of the local public safety structure. Once they do this they would then fall under all the same laws, regulations, etc. that a FD or PD PSD team would face.

I hope this answers you quesiton.

Thanks

Mark D.

 

[Gary D.]

I think its a fallacy to say it is not reasonable to compare one kind of diving to another. Hell, even in your own post claiming its unreasonable to do this, you made such comparisons (for example, with respect to readiness). For that matter - its such comparisons that help strengthen your case that PSD is different. You can't tell its different, you can't know it is different, unless you compare it to something else. That's how you know it's different!

Also - just because the anon diver you mentioned was not a professional or PSD diver does not mean he is a "lesser trained individual". You have no idea WHAT kind of training he may or may not have had (based on the info in your post). For all you know, he may have had a whole team down there. If nothing else, he may have merely been a "differently trained" diver rather than a "lesser trained individual."

I tried to keep it short but I see that didn’t work. It has been reported as a one (1) individual operation. He entered the water solo and recovered the prop. It was also reported that he was an employee of a local business. This operation didn’t fall under ANY type of training I’m aware of.

This is a calm pic of the area in question. The power plant discharge comes in from the right side. The Spokane River's North river channel flows under the Post Street Bridge. Night photos, Spokane, Washington

What it boils down to is he took it upon himself to do an operation that could go well or go very bad. Had it gone bad his actions would have placed other lives at risk trying to correct what went wrong. It doesn’t only risk the lives of those involved in the operation. It risks the livelihood of family for many generations to come. Some people just don’t think.

Does this clear it up any?

Gary D.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

dittrimd - I don't think we disagree in principle in a few areas and I suspect we are not as far away as you suggest in others.

It is easier to make a PSD out of a well trained civilian diver (note I have never used the term "recreational" diver in the previous post) than it is to start from scratch with the average FD or PD member who does not dive, and I think others would agree if the FD or PD member does not dive, they won't hang around and are a waste of resoruces and training time.

It's true I have never been a PSD in the official sense of the word. I have however been asked to assist in training by appropriately certified team training officers, have acted as a safety diver to keep PSD's safe and alive on deeper and more challenging training dives and the only diver I have every encountered in a full blown panic was a PSD. I am also fairly well trained as a technical diver and I have extensive inland commercial diving experience over the last 20 years.

I have also recovered bodies, numerous vehicles, drugs and weapons and I know a lot more about evidence collection and preservation, sadly, than the officers I have handed it over to on numerous occassions. (My original bachelors degree was in criminiology and I worked as an LEO, so I am not exactly a "civilian" in that regard.)

The reality in the rural areas where I have lived is that minimally competent PSD teams have handled recoveries in their jurisdictions but have also refused to provide the service in more remote counties or asked for fees the other jurisdictions could not afford (for example $50 per hour per team member plus travel time and costs for each member) and where it consequently ends up being done by commerical divers - which in most cases ends up being both less expensive and safer for all involved anyway given the discrepency in competence levels.

Again, I am not knocking professional teams who are properly trained and maintain a high level of proficiency. I am stating that it is not an endeavor to be taken lightly and sending someone to a few courses and putting PSD in someone's title is not enough to ensure they can do it safely under deep dark and scary conditions that often arise. It is one of those endeavors that requires you do it right or don't do it at all. I am consequently also suggesting that many if not most rural areas would be better served by being more inlcusive of the existing experienced local civilian and commercial divers who woudl be willing to volunteer and not limiting participation to full time FD or PD members for insurance, liability or other reasons if they desire to have a team of capable professionals who wil get the job done without undue risk of getting team members hurt.

I have seen cases where 12 dives per year is nowhere near adequate, suggesting otherwise is unwise. I have also seen an instance of multiple PSD's ending up with ambulance rides on a 110' recovery dive in cold, low viz water as they were overwhelmed by those conditions, let alone the need to search effectively (which was not successfully accomplished - the body was eventually located by civilian divers - and the recovery was horrifically executed by PSD's who insisted on making the recovery for political reasons - yes it left a bad taste in my mouth.) A 110' dive in cold water in zero viz was not what a competent diver - commercial or tech - would have regarded as being particularly challenging.

You are correct that a techncial diver or a commerical diver is not neccesarily a PSD as all three have minimum compentencies in different skill areas that must be attained. But it cuts both ways. Hypothetically, if a diver drowns in a cave, who are you going to send in to recover the body - the average PSD or a cave diver trained in recovery techiques? Same with a diver who drowns inside a 200' deep wreck - a PSD or a properly trained technical or commercial diver?

I see a great deal of merit in PSD teams having primary responsibility for rescue scenarios where time is critical and the faster response time of full time public safety officer PSD team members is an asset. But when the rescue becomes a recovery there may be other factors you want to consider in terms of team composition and qualifications.

 

[dittrimd]

dittrimd - I don't think we disagree in principle in a few areas and I suspect we are not as far away as you suggest in others.

After reviewing this post and your history I agree we are pretty close. See my comments below.

It is easier to make a PSD out of a well trained civilian diver (note I have never used the term "recreational" diver in the previous post) than it is to start from scratch with the average FD or PD member who does not dive, and I think others would agree if the FD or PD member does not dive, they won't hang around and are a waste of resoruces and training time.

For the most part I would agree. Our team has seen both types join our team and I was a civilian diver long before a PSD. The times a civilian diver no matter what their experience level has not worked out. When you have divers who only dove warm clear water they are not ready and are repelled by the cold and dark. When you start new they have no reference point so they have no expectations. I think it is more a matter of the individuals commitment to dive and be part of the team. People who lack commitment are unable to over come the obstacles they face in PSD no matter what their background is.

It's true I have never been a PSD in the official sense of the word. I have however been asked to assist in training by appropriately certified team training officers, have acted as a safety diver to keep PSD's safe and alive on deeper and more challenging training dives and the only diver I have every encountered in a full blown panic was a PSD. I am also fairly well trained as a technical diver and I have extensive inland commercial diving experience over the last 20 years.

I have also recovered bodies, numerous vehicles, drugs and weapons and I know a lot more about evidence collection and preservation, sadly, than the officers I have handed it over to on numerous occassions. (My original bachelors degree was in criminiology and I worked as an LEO, so I am not exactly a "civilian" in that regard.)

Ok this is helpful in putting your comments into perspective. I would say that of the civilians I know who are technically very competent and experienced in varous types of diving then are not necessarily prepared to handle the emotional stress of public safety work in general let alone public safety diving. In my fire department I have seem more people come and go than stay. They join with the best intentions of helping their community and ultimately cannot handle what they face. It is not so much the blood and guts they are preparing themselves for that. What they are not prepared for and are blindsided by is the emotional impact that hits them pretty hard on their first real call. We are all human and everyone has thier own threshold for human suffering. I have had people leave after their first CPR call. I had someone who was a superior EMT leave after being in the back of the ambulance with a young child with a broken long bone screaming in pain. Civilian divers for the most part and obviously you are not in this group are not ready for what they may find underwater be it a 10 feet or 110'.

The reality in the rural areas where I have lived is that minimally competent PSD teams have handled recoveries in their jurisdictions but have also refused to provide the service in more remote counties or asked for fees the other jurisdictions could not afford (for example $50 per hour per team member plus travel time and costs for each member) and where it consequently ends up being done by commerical divers - which in most cases ends up being both less expensive and safer for all involved anyway given the discrepency in competence levels.

CT is a realitively small state so I cannot relate to remote response issue but our team does work with other neighboring counties and LEO PSD teams to assist if needed. I believe the rescue work should be done by the FD but rescue usually means recovery. Leave the pure recovery to the PD and property recovery to commercial agencies if it does not involve a crime.

Again, I am not knocking professional teams who are properly trained and maintain a high level of proficiency. I am stating that it is not an endeavor to be taken lightly and sending someone to a few courses and putting PSD in someone's title is not enough to ensure they can do it safely under deep dark and scary conditions that often arise. It is one of those endeavors that requires you do it right or don't do it at all. I am consequently also suggesting that many if not most rural areas would be better served by being more inlcusive of the existing experienced local civilian and commercial divers who woudl be willing to volunteer and not limiting participation to full time FD or PD members for insurance, liability or other reasons if they desire to have a team of capable professionals who wil get the job done without undue risk of getting team members hurt.

I agree that all PSD work needs to be taken seriously and I think for the most part it is. When we see instances of teams operating unsafely I don't think it is for lack of regard for their safety but lack of training, knowledge and experience. I like to think that those among us who have the knowledge and experience should help these teams as best we can.

I cannot speak to your area but our team welcomes any commercial or civilian diver who wants to participate. The only caveat is that the must do it under the laws, rules and guidelines are in place for our area and team. In my area this means you must be a member of one of the agencies that comprises our team. A volunteer fire department or ambulance service. You must meet their requirements first then get approval and support from the chief or that service to participate in the county dive team. If this means becoming a firefighter or EMT then that is what needs to be done. The parameters are in place for a reason and must be met. Many individuals who express interest are unwilling to meet this requirements and subsequently do not become part of the team. It is not fair to characterized our team as being unwilling to be inclusive of those with talent and the desire to help because we have rules governing participation. This structure is there to protect the safety of the individuals. If you were not part of the team then the potentail exists for you not to recognize the chain of command becuase they would have no jurisdiction over you. If the team leader decided it was not safe to recover the movie prop you could just say, " to heck with you that is an easy dive and I am going to do it anyway."

For places where your only option is a paid FD or PD I feel bad becuase it is even tougher to get into those organizations vs. a volunteer organizations which is always looking for help.

I have seen cases where 12 dives per year is nowhere near adequate, suggesting otherwise is unwise. I have also seen an instance of multiple PSD's ending up with ambulance rides on a 110' recovery dive in cold, low viz water as they were overwhelmed by those conditions, let alone the need to search effectively (which was not successfully accomplished - the body was eventually located by civilian divers - and the recovery was horrifically executed by PSD's who insisted on making the recovery for political reasons - yes it left a bad taste in my mouth.) A 110' dive in cold water in zero viz was not what a competent diver - commercial or tech - would have regarded as being particularly challenging.

I agree that there needs to be limits and the people setting those limits need to be educated and responsible enough to enforce them. Effective leadership is a problem and I am not going to say we do not have our ego issues in public safety. Sounds like poor decision making process on the part of whoever was leading that operation you talked about.

Our team has a self imposed limit of 100'. Just so happens that in our response area there is not one body of water at that depth. In fact our deepest body of water is a best 65' and the average depth is more around 20' to 30'. We train every month no matter what the weather unless we have active thunder storms. We go in the pool at the beginning of every winter to make sure everything is set for ice.

You are correct that a techncial diver or a commerical diver is not neccesarily a PSD as all three have minimum compentencies in different skill areas that must be attained. But it cuts both ways. Hypothetically, if a diver drowns in a cave, who are you going to send in to recover the body - the average PSD or a cave diver trained in recovery techiques? Same with a diver who drowns inside a 200' deep wreck - a PSD or a properly trained technical or commercial diver?

I agree that specialize recovery needs to be done by people who have the training. Deep diving or cave diving is beyond the scope of my team and we would not do it. Again it comes down to the team and who is leading them to make the right decision for the incident at hand. No two incidents are ever the same.

I see a great deal of merit in PSD teams having primary responsibility for rescue scenarios where time is critical and the faster response time of full time public safety officer PSD team members is an asset. But when the rescue becomes a recovery there may be other factors you want to consider in terms of team composition and qualifications.

I agree but with the same condition that if they are going to participate with the team the must operated within the team structure. If the operation goes beyond the capability of the team then call in the commercial outfit or the Navy and let them handle it.

In closing I would like to thank you again for you detailed reply in which you helped me understand where you were coming from. I guess you had a previous bad experience with a PSD team. I hope you got some benefit from this exchange of ideas.

Take care and good luck,

Mark D.

 

[Lucy's Diver]

There is also a wild disparity throughout the country in terms of gear and qualifications for PSD teams. Its easy for me, on a team in a position to dive on surface supply (or not) AGA, hardhat, bite reg, wireless coms, wired coms, or not dive at all doing the job with an ROV, pole cam, or an array of different sonar techniques, to be critical of a couple guys with OW certs jumping in the water with bit reg and pull the rope coms (if that), but there's a lot of that out there.

 

[NudeDiver]

...The fact is he took an unecessary risk for some unknown reason.

All rec divers take unnecessary risks just by getting in the water, no matter what the conditions. So do motorcycle riders every time they ride their motorcycle. Check this out:

Marine motorcycle deaths top their Iraq combat fatalities
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/30/marine.motorcycles/index.html

Motorcycles are more deadly to marines than a war zone. ***? Clearly then, the Marine Corp should ban its members from riding motorcycles, right? After all, despite mandatory training and safety devices, they're still more deadly to Marines than the war zone. Makes no sense for Marines to be subjecting themselves to this danger right? If they can't make the good decision, someone else must make it for them, right? No. Why? Personal freedom - which includes the freedom to take unnecessary risks and even screw up.

Logically and rationally speaking, there can be no "legitimate" reason for people to engage in any number of various recreational activities that are potentially life threatening and generally regarded as dangerous. But they do anyway. Does that mean they have flawed decision-making processes? No. It merely means they either acknowledge the risk and accept it, or are ignorant and unaware of the risk. Either way, I don't see the problem.

Did he value the property or the recognition above his own life?

Maybe he did. So what? Its his life to value, however he sees fit. Again, people have different value systems. It's not reasonable to push one's own value system on everyone else - although - unfortunately - it's what government does every day ):

We may never know but ultimately his decision making process was flawed.

I just disagree. His decision making process may have used different criteria from yours, mine, or someone else's, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was flawed. Suppose he doesn't value his own life, for example. Suppose he values fame and fortune more than his own life. Suppose any number of things. Just because his value system and the decision-making process he chooses for himself is not something we would choose doesn't make it flawed or lessor, or inferior in some way. It's merely different.