Private vs. Public Dive Teams

[NudeDiver]

What it boils down to is he took it upon himself to do an operation that could go well or go very bad. Had it gone bad his actions would have placed other lives at risk trying to correct what went wrong. It doesn’t only risk the lives of those involved in the operation. It risks the livelihood of family for many generations to come. Some people just don’t think.

Sounds like he just had a higher tolerance for risk to me. In this case, he was successful. Next time, he may not be.

 

[bridgediver]

It is easier to make a PSD out of a well trained civilian diver (note I have never used the term "recreational" diver in the previous post) than it is to start from scratch with the average FD or PD member who does not dive, and I think others would agree if the FD or PD member does not dive, they won't hang around and are a waste of resoruces and training time..

I disagree. Here's why based on what I've seen in not only my team but others throughout North America.
First off its very hard to find a "well trained" recreational (sport) diver these days. The OW courses these days have lowered their standards so much that the average diver is hard pressed to possess the skill to save themselves in an easy environment let alone one where PSDs mostly end up. So when we begin a level 1 PSD course we are expecting "well trained" OW divers as a minimum requirement - this is not what we get -- many don't understand the basic principles of diving and most don't practice basic skills or haven't done them since their OW class (where they've done them only a couple of times). [I could make a list of common deficiencies that the average OW dive course has but there are hundereds of threads all over the internet on this so my opinion and experience is far from unique]
Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but from what I've seen its at least as high as 50%. Because of this, we've found it necessary to re-train everyone anyway for our team. Right from the start our guys are used to communicating tactily (is that a word?) in black out and/or maskless conditions with entanglement problems to deal with in the 1st pool session. 99% of the sport diving world never trains their OW divers this way but this is what we need for PSD because that is what they face.
*Many argue that sport divers really should be prepared for this stuff to.

From what I've seen it doesn't matter if the divers have a couple of hundered sport dives and enjoy sport diving or if they only do PSD diving. They leave at the same rate. Our most senior diver has never dived anywhere outside of our response area and probably could count on one hand how many dives he's NOT been tethered. On the other hand I had a DM level guy quit the team not even a year after his formal training course.
Most of our guys actually have fun doing the PSD training and its enough for them. We've had some training sessions that were allot more fun than reef diving in Coz (my opinion alone of course because nobody on my team has actually been to Coz).
It might be hard for you to imagine this if you've never done it but I think your preception is off on this one

I have however been asked to assist in training by appropriately certified team training officers, have acted as a safety diver to keep PSD's safe...

I find this curious. You freely admit that you personally have had no formal PSD training yet you are engaged in assisting PSD training. Are these "certified team training officers" actual instructors of an actual PSD training agency or are they simply a recreational instructor that happens to work for the FD/PD or whatever?
This may be where your misunderstanding comes from and if they are the latter I can totally understand your frustrations and criticisms. Are they the same group that are having all these problems?
I can't see any PSD training agency using non-PSD instructors in facilitating training.

This then underscores the whole "properly trained PSD team" thing

If everything you've seen from the PSD world is of teams that just "wing it" then I understand why your attitude is as it is. They way you describe things it just doesn't sound right.
Lucy's right. There are allot of rogue type teams out there but most are not like that. Try not to paint all PSD with the same brush until you've been exposed to it more ie - take a PSD class, talk to the PSD agencies, find out which teams do it properly etc

I have seen cases where 12 dives per year is nowhere near adequate, suggesting otherwise is unwise. ..

Let me explain since I initially said this was OK.
Again, its quality Not quantity.
We actually do 12 SESSIONS per month which usually equates to 2-3 dives per SESSION per diver so its allot more than 12 dives a year but even if its not the sessions themselves are defined. Our divers do more skills in a 20min dive than most divers do in a season of carribean diving. If you don't believe me ask the average sport diver what they do on their dives. I'll bet most will say things like we swam over to this and that and we seen this and that. A PSD training session will be describe much differently like "I did this type of search and ran out of air" and the next dive "I got trpped" and the next dive was "another type of search and I had to save Dave and he lost his mask in the middle of it" etc etc. A good PSD training session will have the diver "experience" major problems or multiple problems ie - OOAs, entanglement, injuries, free flows, bouyancy problems etc
50 sport dives where you are pretty much just there sight seeing won't compare to just 1 pool session that we run.
I say again, 12 dives a year can be enough if its done properly

I have also seen an instance of multiple PSD's ending up with ambulance rides on a 110' recovery dive in cold, low viz water as they were overwhelmed by those conditions, let alone the need to search effectively (which was not successfully accomplished - the body was eventually located by civilian divers - and the recovery was horrifically executed by PSD's who insisted on making the recovery for political reasons - yes it left a bad taste in my mouth.) ..

This could become another discussion on its own but for a level 1 PSD team their max depth should be 60ft. More advanced PSD courses should be taken to exceed this depth.
Anything greater than 100ft should be SSA which can be done only by an exceptionally trained and equipped PSD team. This is assuming we are doing a search and that is the PSDs real role. Can a tech diver do a recovery from +100ft? In some cases, of course - knowledge of bottom, current, topography, hazards and most importantly knowledge of where the victim is must be known.
If you don't know this stuff its safer for sonar and/or ROV forget even the tech divers. What's the rush? If they're past 100ft they aren't going anywhere and for sure they're dead. Get the SSA guys

This is the training standards for at least 1 PSD training agency that I know of and I also know that the others aren't all that different.
It would have left a bad taste in my mouth to were I in your position.

(A 110' dive in cold water in zero viz was not what a competent diver - commercial or tech - would have regarded as being particularly challenging...

You're probably right about the commercial guys but I don't know of a tech diver anywhere that would KNOWINGLY make a dive in a zero vis environment for fun. If we can't see why the heck are we going? Trimix is expensive! Tech divers are trained to handle silt outs and may even experience the odd one every few years but its not the same as a blackout dive as the PSD encounters where the ENTIRE dive is black not just a portion of it
I'm a tech diver too and know many others

You are correct that a techncial diver or a commerical diver is not neccesarily a PSD as all three have minimum compentencies in different skill areas that must be attained. But it cuts both ways. Hypothetically, if a diver drowns in a cave, who are you going to send in to recover the body - the average PSD or a cave diver trained in recovery techiques? Same with a diver who drowns inside a 200' deep wreck - a PSD or a properly trained technical or commercial diver?..

Mark kind of covered this too but much like specialty training for sport diving there is specialty training for PSD. Don't assume that just because someone's a PSD that means they can go get anybody from anywhere at anytime. My team has more restrictions on where and what we can do than the new OW diver even though they are more skilled than the average DM - the restrictions won't go away however because its safety first. I'd rather have my whole team together bitching that we should have tried to do more instead of part of my team knowing that we pushed too far.
I don't think theres any of the PSDs on here that wouldn't look to the experts for a technical op like a cave, structure or extreme depth but there are usually a bigger agency that can be called on for the bad stuff ie navy, RCMP (or ditch diver). They are the guys that are trained to do the deep complex stuff and have all the toys (sonar, ROV, on site chamber etc). Just because you and I have a trimix card and have pulled bodies out of the water doesn't make us qualified. I've got certs for both but not both at the same time so its not my ball either


One of the better discussions in a while guys, thanks

Mark

 

[bridgediver]

Its his life to value, however he sees fit. Again, people have different value systems. It's not reasonable to push one's own value system on everyone else - although - unfortunately - it's what government does every day ):

Ah! We have an anarchist among us!

Seriously though. If we left everyone responsible for their own actions it'd be like the wild west again. Its not as simple as anyone can do what they want - if they fail there are always consequences that the rest of us have to pay for and clean up.

Don't get me wrong. Stupid people doing stupid things keeps me employed and makes the job very interesting but where it becomes tragic is when innocent people become victims either directly or indirectly.
I wonder if this guy has a family. Insurance or debt (everyone has both usually). His choice? yes but our responsibilty

 

[NudeDiver]

Ah! We have an anarchist among us!

Hey, being anti-government does not make me an anarchist

Seriously though. If we left everyone responsible for their own actions it'd be like the wild west again. Its not as simple as anyone can do what they want - if they fail there are always consequences that the rest of us have to pay for and clean up.Don't get me wrong. Stupid people doing stupid things keeps me employed and makes the job very interesting but where it becomes tragic is when innocent people become victims either directly or indirectly.I wonder if this guy has a family. Insurance or debt (everyone has both usually). His choice? yes but our responsibilty

But taking this to its logical end - then no one should ever engage in optional activities that are considered dangerous (presumably by some government committee) because someone else is going to pay costs. Not really a world I want to participate in

 

[ditch-diver]

The world is dangerous place..., we can;t even stay in bed to be safe..., soooo many people die in bed too!!

The question is not about what is and is not dangerous.., because even a dive to 35' is dangerous..., the biggest thing is "management of risk". What makes PSDs different is their training in risk management. We are subject to the exact same physics and physiology laws as everyone else so having 'multiple PSDs end up with an ambulance ride' means nothing to me. The question is how was the risk managed.

I'm not a tech diver, or a cave diver..., but have 20 plus years of extensive diving experience and dive training. I am a pretty good diver if I do say so myself. I have friends who are cave divers. A risky business.., but as far as diving goes, their skills and buoyancy control is no better than mine. What makes us different.., they have training to manage the risk of going in a cave. I also have numerous friends that are tech guys.., doing the tri-mix dives to crazy depths. Again it is a question of risk management.

If I posted somewhere on this forum that I did a cave dive by myself.., after experienced cavers felt it was not the best thing to do.., or grabbed a set or twins with trimix and did a dive to 330' with NO training in the management of that dive..., I'd get blasted as being unsafe and crazy even though I did it and came back safely.

That is how we PSDs look at a lone diver who elects to do a dive that a team suggests to wait to do. As bridge diver said.., we train in entanglement, OOA in zero vis..., trapped divers and fouled working lines the same way tech dives train in your gas switching drills.., or whatever you "quasi-crazy but certainly richer than me" tech divers call it.

We have intensive training for senior divers about recognizing and minimizing risks in our job.., but I am willing to bet this lone diver recognized very few of the risks and minimized even less. He did the dive and went home safely (thank God) but make no mistake.., he was more lucky than good.

Gary.., my family and I are praying for your team mate and his daughter

 

[dittrimd]

I would like to echo Mark's comments about how good this thread is. I think it will help other teams who are stuggling to improve their teams.

Lucy, I agree that there is a huge disparity between PSD team. Until recently there have not even been any type of standards for PS Divers. Recently NFPA has started to list some general guidelines but again in most cases these are not law and it is left up to the local AHJ's to determine their teams operating parameters.

With that said I also want to follow up on Nudes comments about taking risks.

Nude you are absolutely right that taking risks. It all starts with a personal choice. My brother rides "donorcycles" or "job security" as I like to call them and loves it. I am sure that I would enjoy riding motorcylces as well but I have seen the result of even the safest motorcyclist who ends up in little pieces all over the road becuase some idiot in an SUV ran a red light. Whenever I get on him about the risks he takes he rebutts with my choice to enter burning buildings, diving in less than hospitable waters or my newest hobby swift water rescue. He is right I am being a nit hippocritical in my concern for his well being. He also like to throw in that he does not have kids and I do (ouch). How I rationalize my decision making process is another thread all on its own so I will leave that alone.

My position regarding risk is not about individuals taking risks but how that risk is mitigated or managed (if possible) when you are part of a PSD team. When you make a decision about risk as an individual the only person or people you are accountable to is yourself and any loved ones you leave behind. When you take risks as part of a team there are other people in positions of authority who are legally responsible for you as a public safety professional. This is what I am trying to illustrate as part of the original thread as to why divers no matter how qualified cannot participate in PSD activites unless they are affiliated with a public safety orgainization. There are real consequences for people in positions of authority in public safety. If things go bad their life is torn apart when an investigation is initiated in the wake of a LOD death. The worst consequence has to be living the rest of your life wondering if you are to blame for another human beings death. There is a possiblility of jail, and most certainly lawsuits, termination of employment and on and on.

The individual has none of this. They may be a footnote in the "Darwin Awards" and cause tremendous sadness to their family and friends but that is where it ends. Maybe the hydro electric company gets sued buy the family and some lawyer for not restriciting access better to their property.

As public safety professionals we are always being monday morning quarterbacked. No matter how an incident goes we are either questioned for doing too much and causing unecessary death or injury or not doing enough and causing death or injury to a victim. It is a delicate balance that we try to achive hence our mantra of risk vs. benefit. It is the foundation for most of our actions in the public safety realm and it is why as a group cannot allow people no matter how extensive their qualifications to randomly participate in public safety activites.

Hope this help you understand my position on risk taking relative to PSD.

Mark D.

 

[Gary D.]

Sounds like he just had a higher tolerance for risk to me. In this case, he was successful. Next time, he may not be.

You just said what we have been trying to get across. PSD's live by, or at least should live by what has been said already. We risk a lot to save a viable life. We risk little to save little and we risk nothing to save nothing.

In the case of the movie prop it wasn't a risk to life or limb so as trained PSD's we are going to try and eliminate as much risk as possible. Why did the person who pulled this off do it at night, in an area of converging currents and do it alone? Hummmm, maybe training or the lack of? Maybe trying to make a name for himself?

He's not the only one that got lucky. Had it gone wrong and he was injured or died as a result of his careless actions the local team would have been drug across the coals for not doing the recovery earlier. They would have also been run across the coals had they tried the high risk low benefit recovery and a something happened to a team member.

The team made a decision to walk away and return during the DAY to do the operation. What this individual did is put everyone in a Catch 22 position. In this business there is no room for individuals taking actions like this on their own. It's not like getting a kitten out from under the porch.

Gary D.