tilikum
Banned
I remember the real GI Joe dolls.
Problems with Certified to 130 feet in one course, circa 1975-1980
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Caveeagle
Contributor
The evolution of training and card collecting is not just limited to those who started pre 1980! Diving in 1991, a "cave" card pretty much got you what ever you wanted. Admittedly, training is much improved since then, but so is the limiting force of those who want to see certification for many things that were considered "just part of cave diving" in the 80s/90s.
In 2003, a buddy invited me to tag along with their AOW class in Dutch Springs. I brought my doubles and standard setup, because that was all I had.. His instructor gave m some friction about my gear and wanted me to show training for doubles, or tech, or whatever. I showed him my dive logs and he backed off, but it's kind of the same conundrum..
I take the the opposite position than most on this. when I took my OW in the 60's that content included all training through what is the current master diver. You had deep diving reacue/ first aide ect. Now the course has been broken up for a variety of specific reasons, all centering around money and time. You do not get the same training in 2 days that you used to get in 40-80 hours of class and water time. In those days you got one deploma from school and that was the HS. NOw you have one for pre k , grade school , middle school, and high school. that Pre K is not that same as a HS deploma, even if it says public school deploma. Neither is the OW the same as a master. There is no maeasure of what experience is,,, and is just a BS piece of text to make things even more blurry. OW teaches skills to 60 ft they will not even allow instructors to take students below 60 ft. How can any instructor certify a diver to 130 when they have not had them below say 30 ft? No one but the scuba industry does this. If you get a basic drivers license you cant drive a semi but the scuba world lets you declare your self "WITH EXPERIENCE" and that allows you do do dives you are not training to do. Face it push required certification and the industry would dry up for the most part. I have to applaud those operators that require certified proof of training. There is no testament as to what ones proficency is , but there is still the record of satifactory completion of training whether adaquate or not, with the C card. Arguments can always be made that instructors can print off cards with out any training and as such the card means nothing regarding a divers ability. That is true. That statement is the same as a locked door only keeps the honest people out. In short the dollar is what DETERMINES THAT A DIVER HAS EXPERIENCE.
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What Boulder John said in post 2 of this thread is probably a very accurate explaination. The litigation factor is a significant one. I recall talking to some diver friends long ago when I first met them and this topic came up. He was telling me that he was a bit embarrassd when he asked his inst. about doing a CESA form 60-100 ft in the AOW course. He was told that the CESA is no longer a tool to use at AOW depth's and that other skills (planning, buddy sytem ect) now have to replace the option of CESA. as a primary means to avoid the need for what would be now a dangerous CESA.
In short the CESA was a shallow water last resort. Air consumption rates and other factors make the planning of a dive more critical as the depth increases.
I did not have anything to say like that but I did tell a story about me being around 15 and that for summer work I drove pulling tandom trailers. He asked how I did that. I chuckled and admitted that on a farm I drove the pickup or tractor with 2 trailers of harvested grain from the field to the house or elevator. I could only go about 5-10 MPH and I did not need a license because it was farm equipment. The neighbor farmer allowed me to do it also for him because I had experience. To be picky I did not lie,,, I did summer work driving and hauling tandom trailers at age 15. Certainly No DPS would accept that as experience for a real rig.
In short the CESA was a shallow water last resort. Air consumption rates and other factors make the planning of a dive more critical as the depth increases.
I did not have anything to say like that but I did tell a story about me being around 15 and that for summer work I drove pulling tandom trailers. He asked how I did that. I chuckled and admitted that on a farm I drove the pickup or tractor with 2 trailers of harvested grain from the field to the house or elevator. I could only go about 5-10 MPH and I did not need a license because it was farm equipment. The neighbor farmer allowed me to do it also for him because I had experience. To be picky I did not lie,,, I did summer work driving and hauling tandom trailers at age 15. Certainly No DPS would accept that as experience for a real rig.
I am a product of reasonably recent dive training, so speak from no experience of a 1975-1980 open water course. But, I'm guessing that the course you did took a lot longer than two weekends of your time (including theory and pool session), and the requirements were a lot more onerous. I dare say the training included dives deeper than 60' too. Just because the name is the same, your Open Water Certification isn't the same as one today. As a divemaster, and assuming you had recent experience in comparable conditions (and didn't show up with a double-hose reg, horse collar bc, and no spg), I'd have no problem guiding you the same as I would anyone with a 130' "deep" certification.
Is it good that dive courses are more modularized now? That's a different question. Shorter courses enables more people to access diving, and on a per-capita basis I think diving is an awful lot safer than it was decades ago. Part of the improvement in safety is due to equipment and accident analysis. Part is probably due to new divers not thinking they'll be fine at 130'. On the other hand, as you point out, it now takes several courses to get a roughly equivalent qualification.
Is it good that dive courses are more modularized now? That's a different question. Shorter courses enables more people to access diving, and on a per-capita basis I think diving is an awful lot safer than it was decades ago. Part of the improvement in safety is due to equipment and accident analysis. Part is probably due to new divers not thinking they'll be fine at 130'. On the other hand, as you point out, it now takes several courses to get a roughly equivalent qualification.
rgdiver1
Contributor
Back when I got certified in the late 60's, I was only aware of one level of scuba certification. My instructor told us that diving deeper than 60 feet was impractical with a single cylinder, and there was less to see that deep(!). Consequently all my early dives were around 60 feet or less. Many were 30 feet or less, and I remember having lots of fun on those shallow dives. Also I liked the idea of having more time underwater by staying shallow.
It wasn't until many years later that I was introduced to the concept of multiple levels of training in scuba diving. When I became a PADI diver, it wasn't until the Divemaster class that we did some of things we did in my original diver training through the YMCA in 1968. Back then, the instructor made it clear that scuba diving wasn't for everyone, and people could and did washout. Frankly I think one reason there weren't more levels of training in the old days is because divers were more thoroughly trained to begin with.
BTW I didn't get the bug to dive deep until many years after I'd originally been certified. Fortunately I got trained in mixed-gas diving and did it right. These days I'm perfectly happy to stay shallow, so I've come full circle.
It wasn't until many years later that I was introduced to the concept of multiple levels of training in scuba diving. When I became a PADI diver, it wasn't until the Divemaster class that we did some of things we did in my original diver training through the YMCA in 1968. Back then, the instructor made it clear that scuba diving wasn't for everyone, and people could and did washout. Frankly I think one reason there weren't more levels of training in the old days is because divers were more thoroughly trained to begin with.
BTW I didn't get the bug to dive deep until many years after I'd originally been certified. Fortunately I got trained in mixed-gas diving and did it right. These days I'm perfectly happy to stay shallow, so I've come full circle.
elmo and rg, I could not agree with you more. what scares me are the ones that have but a dozen dives and feel they are invincible. IN the OLDEN DAYS we all had a sense of ownership. (we pay for our failures) that is severely lacking in todays youth. The idea of what made one good to do a dive in years past no longer has the givens that were once there.
And yes I had a horse collar but bought the single hose over the double hose cause it was a couple of bucks cheaper tank and reg 100$ with the J-valve. 1/4 " wet suit with beaver tail 50$. personal gear with Rambo knife another 50$. We really did not go past 40-50 ft cause of the suit comperession and becoming heavy. I personally do not have problems with those that have an OW and but loads of dives. I do think that for the formality they should get the AOW card and just get it over with. I have seen operators look at the logs to see how many the type and when the last dives were made. Even with an OW. It is usually easy to spot the vacation diver form the experienced ones.
And yes I had a horse collar but bought the single hose over the double hose cause it was a couple of bucks cheaper tank and reg 100$ with the J-valve. 1/4 " wet suit with beaver tail 50$. personal gear with Rambo knife another 50$. We really did not go past 40-50 ft cause of the suit comperession and becoming heavy. I personally do not have problems with those that have an OW and but loads of dives. I do think that for the formality they should get the AOW card and just get it over with. I have seen operators look at the logs to see how many the type and when the last dives were made. Even with an OW. It is usually easy to spot the vacation diver form the experienced ones.
My initial certification in 1988 (YMCA) explained the established recreational limits of 130' (notice I didn't say anything about any "certified depth"), included gas planning and decompression theory, and was 12 weeks long with 2 days/week of classroom, and 1 possibly 2 day/week (I don't really clearly remember as it was so long ago), of pool. We even did a night dive as a "bonus" at the end of our open water dives.
The steps of training is quite different now, and I cannot say if it is better or worse.
The steps of training is quite different now, and I cannot say if it is better or worse.
2airishuman
Contributor
This discussion comes up often.
One of the points we haven't considered as much is that it would be helpful if c cards actually stated (in summary form) what skills they are supposed to reflect, since these change over time and by agency.
My Nitrox card doesn't say I'm good to 40%, for example, nor do my OW or AOW cards mention any particular depth.
One of the points we haven't considered as much is that it would be helpful if c cards actually stated (in summary form) what skills they are supposed to reflect, since these change over time and by agency.
My Nitrox card doesn't say I'm good to 40%, for example, nor do my OW or AOW cards mention any particular depth.
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