Question about learning deco procedures

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I think the difference is two-fold. First of all in the algorithm that put her computer in deco while mine was still well within NDL.

The second part is harder to put a finger on. My opinion is that the computer is specifically not designed for decompression diving (it states it clearly in the manual) and the programming of the computer gives a deco schedule that covers the manufacturer's azz really well, trying to make sure that no one gets bent on their computer!

I could be wrong...it has happened before!!
 
I've searched for the answer to this but can't find it. Is there a rec diver course that teaches how to make deco dives? I have been taught to never violate NDL, but I know people do make deco dives. Is this something that is only taught in tech diving courses? I am specifically asking about deco dives that are within recreational depth limits.

I know that nitrox is an option to extend NDL. Honestly I'm still working on improving my trim/buoyancy/SAC that I don't get near NDL anyway.

I guess this thread is pretty narrowly focused on US dive agencies. Whereas in the CMAS system, decompression is a usual part of the rec diving curriculum. In the first course (CMAS*, like OWD) you learn already decompression tables and gas planning for decompression dives although dives are still within NDL limits. From CMAS** on, light decompression diving is usual. Their philosophy is rather that every dive is a decompression dive and the distinction between NDL dives and light deco dives is artificial, particularly for dives deeper than 20m. There's no CMAS equivalent to PADI Deep mandatory safety stop, it's considered a usual deco stop. CMAS Nitrox** (accelerated decompression with one stage similar to AN) is still considered a rec class and not in the tec curriculum.
 
I guess this thread is pretty narrowly focused on US dive agencies. Whereas in the CMAS system, decompression is a usual part of the rec diving curriculum. In the first course (CMAS*, like OWD) you learn already decompression tables and gas planning for decompression dives although dives are still within NDL limits. From CMAS** on, light decompression diving is usual. Their philosophy is rather that every dive is a decompression dive and the distinction between NDL dives and light deco dives is artificial, particularly for dives deeper than 20m. There's no CMAS equivalent to PADI Deep mandatory safety stop, it's considered a usual deco stop. CMAS Nitrox** (accelerated decompression with one stage similar to AN) is still considered a rec class and not in the tec curriculum.

The world's biggest training organisation is US based and the vast majority of "technical" agencies are US based. CMAS is an umbrella organisation and it is slightly misleading to talk about a CMAS training schedule as such.

However, the idea that every dive is a deco dive is a very good way to look at things and I think is the view of IANTD, TDI and GUE to name some US agencies. It is perhaps not promoted widely enough by commercial organisations, both agencies and schools, that seek to make diving accessible (another good thing) and don't wish to create the idea that it is dangerous or difficult.

In "no-stop" diving the decompression element is short enough that a normal slow ascent allows enough time for off gassing. But breathing hyperbaric gas will saturate the tissues and decompression of those tissues will occur as one returns to the surface. The saturation is not enough to require a mandatory stop hence "no-stop". It is all too commonplace to call this "no-deco" diving which is strictly speaking wrong.

Short decompression stops do not require huge investments of training or knowledge, simply the ability to hold a stop and to have enough knowledge to ensure enough breathing gas is available at the stop. Breaking out that additional training and knowledge is not a bad thing, hence the system where you have training to 40m with no-stop followed by a decompression procedure course. Of course it is possible to integrate the two and for adequate gas planning knowledge and buoyancy control to be built into the intermediate stages of training programs.

The terms "technical" and "recreational" are meaningless. As a community we often use them as shorthand but really they mean nothing. Marketing created the idea of "technical" diving to persuade people to buy more training and equipment.

I don't think any other hobby or pastime gets itself so wrapped up in nonsense as scuba. It certainly is fertile ground for people that enjoy argument for the sake of entertainment. Absurd tribal loyalties to training agencies are another odd feature of our hobby. It is quite strange. Then there are the equipment debates. Endless and pointless discussions about equipment that demonstrate a massive lack of understanding of the functionality of the equipment defined by tribal views rather than the simple demonstrable function itself.

Every dive is a decompression dive. That is a fact. The management of the off gassing by speed of ascent and whether or not to pause during the ascent needs to be understood from day one. I agree with the general consensus that this can be done by staged training and by the use of "no-stop" dive profiles in the early stages of training. This makes the OP's question a good and valid one. The next stage of training is to gain the additional knowledge and skills to introduce "stops" to the ascent. How you do that is not the big issue, simply that you do it.
 
The world's biggest training organisation is US based and the vast majority of "technical" agencies are US based. CMAS is an umbrella organisation and it is slightly misleading to talk about a CMAS training schedule as such.

CMAS is more than just an umbrella organization. They set the minimum standards and syllabus which include teaching decompression tables and gas planning for the CMAS* program of every CMAS member organization, allowing Nitrox** accelerated decompression training with up to 100% oxygen after CMAS**, and require decompression procedures and in-water stops for the CMAS*** program. You can see the CMAS training standards at
CMAS International Diver Training Standards and Procedures Manual

Regarding size of organizations, it's difficult to get accurate numbers. CMAS scuba training is practically non-existent in US, but is strong in Europe. Technical agencies are very small. One might guess that a lot more PADI OWDs than CMAS* are issued annually, while most of the decompression diving training today actually occurs in CMAS just because it's part of the rec curriculum there.
 
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Regarding size of organizations, it's difficult to get accurate numbers. CMAS scuba training is practically non-existent in US, but is strong in Europe. Technical agencies are very small. One might guess that a lot more PADI OWDs than CMAS* are issued annually, while most of the decompression diving training today actually occurs in CMAS just because it's part of the rec curriculum there.

I agree it is hard to say what the figures are. It is important though not to see this as if there were two different sides to training. Lots of training programs end with a certification recognised by CMAS. For example the IANTD Advanced Nitrox course is CMAS Nitrox Confirmée. IANTD applied for and got CMAS recognition (I am not sure all of which courses - I only know this one as I have it..)

I live in the UK and one could argue that a lot of deco training here is by BSAC (which follows the 2star route of including some deco in intermediary training). However BSAC are not CMAS members. Do you count this as "in" as per your comment or equivalent which is factually correct?

I think we are pretty much in agreement and splitting hairs to be honest. (Par for the course in our hobby :))

I dive a lot in France and it is common there to get a PADI certification in conjunction with the FFESSM certification - the latter being CMAS affiliated. There are short training programs to switch between the two as well. The culmination of the system is to take PADI Rescue, plus Deep Speciality to train to N3 (CMAS 3star). I think I read somewhere that PADI were trying to incorporate the CMAS standards and recognition into the DSAT syllabus. If so then the CMAS rankings will be widespread in North America as well (which would be good).
 
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I live in the UK and one could argue that a lot of deco training here is by BSAC (which follows the 2star route of including some deco in intermediary training). However BSAC are not CMAS members.
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Correct BSAC is not part of CMAS. BSAC’s training meets the ISO Standards which countries are starting to require compliance with. PADI courses are ISO accredited.
 
Correct BSAC is not part of CMAS. BSAC’s training meets the ISO Standards which countries are starting to require compliance with. PADI courses are ISO accredited.

Yes. It is regrettable that ISO requires you buy the publication. Makes it hard to discuss the standards when they are copyrighted and pay for. :(
 
Agreed. But I wonder if the deco time difference has more to do with different algorithms as opposed to some vague ill defined rec vs tec feature.

In order for "rec" computers to compute longer deco times, they would need a different algorithm.

I am unaware of a rec algorithm vs a tec algorithm.

In fact I believe that my ancient rec computer (Uwatec Aladdin) runs what many would consider very aggressive settings for Buhlmann.

I am not an algorithm expert so I am interested in feedback on my observations above.

I don't think it's too hard to classify different computers into Rec vs Tec based on their algorithm.

A "rec" algorithm is one that is not supported with tools that allow a diver to formally plan a dive. A "tec" algorithm is. For example, I would classify DSAT as a "Rec" algorithm. That is because I don't know of any tools that would let me plan an accelerated decompression dive using the DSAT algorithm. I would classify Buhlmann ZHL-16C with Gradient Factors as a "Tec" algorithm because there are numerous tools available to let me do a formal dive plan of an accelerated decompression dive using that algorithm.

Your Aladdin is not Buhlmann. It is BASED on Buhlmann and that is a very important distinction. There is no published information explaining exactly how the algorithm in your Aladdin works or exactly how it is different from any actual Buhlmann algorithm. It COULD be as simple as Buhlmann ZHL-16C with a specific gradient factor setting. GF100/100 would mean that it is exactly the base algorithm with no Gradient Factors at all. But, it could be Buhlmann using a different number of compartments, or different M values. We don't know. And on top of that, it could have additional modifications that we don't know about. For example, maybe the implementer decided to add extra safety margin by coding it so that, IF you cross your NDL threshold and incur a mandatory deco obligation, it doubles the calculated time required at each stop. Or who knows what. And that is why it is not a "Tec" computer - because we don't know exactly what it will do when you go into deco or on repetitive dives or on a seesaw multi-level dive profile or etc.. Thus, we can't plan a technical dive based on it.
 
I don't think it's too hard to classify different computers into Rec vs Tec based on their algorithm.

A "rec" algorithm is one that is not supported with tools that allow a diver to formally plan a dive. A "tec" algorithm is. For example, I would classify DSAT as a "Rec" algorithm. That is because I don't know of any tools that would let me plan an accelerated decompression dive using the DSAT algorithm. I would classify Buhlmann ZHL-16C with Gradient Factors as a "Tec" algorithm because there are numerous tools available to let me do a formal dive plan of an accelerated decompression dive using that algorithm.

Your Aladdin is not Buhlmann. It is BASED on Buhlmann and that is a very important distinction. There is no published information explaining exactly how the algorithm in your Aladdin works or exactly how it is different from any actual Buhlmann algorithm. It COULD be as simple as Buhlmann ZHL-16C with a specific gradient factor setting. GF100/100 would mean that it is exactly the base algorithm with no Gradient Factors at all. But, it could be Buhlmann using a different number of compartments, or different M values. We don't know. And on top of that, it could have additional modifications that we don't know about. For example, maybe the implementer decided to add extra safety margin by coding it so that, IF you cross your NDL threshold and incur a mandatory deco obligation, it doubles the calculated time required at each stop. Or who knows what. And that is why it is not a "Tec" computer - because we don't know exactly what it will do when you go into deco or on repetitive dives or on a seesaw multi-level dive profile or etc.. Thus, we can't plan a technical dive based on it.

So a Zoop is technical? But some Oceanic which lets you change gas underwater is not?
 
So a Zoop is technical? But some Oceanic which lets you change gas underwater is not?

Are there tools that let you do a formal dive plan of an accelerated deco dive (with all that that implies) using a Zoop? You can plan out a dive where you go into deco, do gas switches, calculate amount of each gas required, etc., and then execute that exact dive on the Zoop?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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