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Recreational Sidemount ...

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by BCSGratefulDiver, Mar 9, 2014.

  1. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
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    Mikko ... it's my nature, and my usual approach, to talk about alternative approaches to what I teach. The intent isn't to flood the student with information, so much as to make them aware that there are alternatives available, and that each of them comes with reasons why some people would choose to do it that way. A lot of those are dependent on someone's preference, or what they're used to doing ... others work better in certain environments than in others. It's always a consideration how much time and effort one should put into such a discussion ... and when you're teaching through a shop, you have to consider the interests of the business. For example, since I'll be teaching through a shop that markets certain equipment lines, and that promotes GUE training, how much effort would I want to put into talking about how UTD approaches sidemount diving?

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
  2. Mikko Ilari Laakkonen

    Mikko Ilari Laakkonen Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Finland
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    My nature and usual approach as well. I am just trying to make a point how it would be easier for students to go from one instructor to another without having to relearn skills they already possess just slightly differently. I have been in charge of a dive shop too in the past so I understand business values.

    The main problem for me is that I've seen many even famous instructors market their way as the only way and that they don't recognize previously learned stuff for many students.

    - Mikko Laakkonen -

    I love diving and teaching others to dive.
     
  3. Effervescent

    Effervescent Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: New York, NY
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    I was wondering why this syllabus includes how to disconnect and reconnect tanks whilst diving. Besides looking super cool while "superman"ing tanks, the only real reason I can think of is to go through very small restrictions which seems to be beyond the scope of recreational diving.

    Also, I was wondering if diver trim and tank trim are discussed in the recreational sidemount courses. The reason why I asked is because I searched for "PADI Sidemount" videos on Youtube and was shocked to see the lack of basic buoyancy and trim in some of the top videos. With proper diver and tank trim skills, I would doubt that most divers would need to even superman tanks for certain restrictions assuming the conditions were appropriate.
     
  4. PfcAJ

    PfcAJ Orca

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: St Petersburg, Fl
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    I've heard of valves rolling off in SM when passing restrictions. Wouldn't the right tank be the one prone to a roll of in a knobs out config?
     
  5. rjack321

    rjack321 ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Port Orchard, WA
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    I have never had a valve roll off in SM, mine are up behind my armpits and the regs are down. I only have a long hose at all because it seems like a good idea to be able to donate. Many SM people dive 2 shorter hoses since they don't think a SM buddy has any way to go OOA at all. Some dive 2 longer hoses, aka its a total free-for-all. I feel like the benefits of routing across my chest with some slack and being able to do temp shares without full deployment (say at a gas switch) outweigh the roll-off issue. And having my necklace reg come from the left I like. Cause restowing the stuffed long hose (at all) is an epic PITA with gloves on. Its not too bad with bare hands but can still be pretty messy and clumsy.

    This is definitely one of those things that an OW instructor could completely mix up and confuse students about. A cave or cavern type instructor is at least going to have some understanding of the variety of options students might consider and think about.

    BTW probably 75% of my SM dives are solo anyway so my thoughts are probably poo
     
    shoredivr, victorzamora and Mike.D like this.
  6. theskull

    theskull Divemaster

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: St. Louis, MO
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    The Standard is not to Superman, but to disconnect 1 tank at the rear connection. The logic is that you will want to be fluent at this so you can disconnect 1 tank as you approach the boat so you can hand it up before climbing the ladder.

    Diver and tank trim are not specifically addressed in the standards, but you can bet they are part of my classes. Honestly, many of the less experienced Instructors are still struggling with these skills themselves.

    theskull
     
    Jim Lapenta likes this.
  7. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
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    I'd list the following reasons;

    1) Developing equipment familiarity and ingrained muscle memory; especially with the cylinder bolt-snaps. Many students initially struggle with the operation to attach/detach cylinders, even at the surface. This is more practice with the kit, developing 'feel' for manipulating the snaps and the cylinders.

    2) It provides a simple option for the sidemount diver to neaten/stow their hoses on the cylinders.

    3) It helps develop awareness of cylinder buoyancy characteristics.

    4) It is an initial orientation into the full capabilities of the sidemount system. Consider this something of 'beginning with the end in mind''. It highlights equipment performance capacity. It doesn't "train" for restrictions.

    5) It provides some option for recreational overhead divers (esp. wreck) to utilize the equipment to escape from an otherwise dangerous situation. I teach my recreational wreck-sidemount students to never pass restrictions, but to remain aware of exit options that sidemount would permit in an emergency.

    Yes, they should be.

    Here's one of my PADI sidemount students, from this year, on his first open-water descent (equipment workshop and pool session done the previous day):

    [​IMG]

    There has been a quick growth in the popularity of sidemount diving. That causes, in turn, a quick growth in sidemount instructor population. So... given that high quality sidemount skills and instructional competency takes quite some time to develop.... you have a lot of new sidemount instructors who are not 'expert' with the equipment.

    Hence... some really bad training outcomes...

    [​IMG]
     
    Colliam7 and victorzamora like this.
  8. PfcAJ

    PfcAJ Orca

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: St Petersburg, Fl
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    http://www.asainslie.com/documents/Rethinking_Bailout_and_Reserve_Gas.pdf

    Interesting read and a 1st hand account of a valve rolling off. Seems Murphy-ish, but I guess its a real thing in some configs?
     
  9. rjack321

    rjack321 ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Port Orchard, WA
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    Well taking them off and 1 diver passing them through restrictions is in a slightly different category than 2 people sharing gas through a restriction and having the donation tank roll off. Its certainly possible for valves to roll on or off in the process of picking up and dropping stages (which are bungied on in SM) and while supermanning tanks. I have rolled many a stage valve on/off while taking them on and off in SM. Not very much but my valves are pretty loose.
     
  10. Mikko Ilari Laakkonen

    Mikko Ilari Laakkonen Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Finland
    196
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    Just to clarify, are some of you saying that long hose on the left is somehow not compatible from the cave perspective?

    For the valves rolling, you would need to bang the tanks quite hard to get them accidentally rolled off. I have been taught that if there is something happening to top portion of the tank I should check the first stage and valve. Also another thing that might be benefit able to teach for beginner sm students from the get go. Not to be able to pass tiny restrictions but to create good muscle memory and beginning with the end in mind.

    - Mikko Laakkonen -

    I love diving and teaching others to dive.
     

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