Recreational Sidemount ...

[theskull]

With all due respect this is not an accurate statement.

SOME Technical Certs, for example -cave certification requires configuration specific training. Both the NSS and NACD will train cavern or intro in a single back mount, but basic, apprentice, and full cave requires a config specific to either back mount doubles, or sidemount and/or CCR, each is a separate cert, shortened if the original cert in Full Cave is earned in a different configuration.

My further understanding is PADI, TDI and IANTD require a Tec-Sidemount cert before side mounting for deco procedures and Trimix Tec ratings.


Dan

PADI does not require a TecSidemount cert, or even a Sidemount cert, before undertaking TecDeep or Trimix in Sidemount config. Requirement is that you are proficient in the rig! The certs can be an accelerated method of becoming proficient over figuring it out for yourself, but are in no way required.

You do have to be a Sidemount Instructor before teaching students at the TecDeep level if they are in Sidemount config, regardless of your experience, or even whether you yourself are in sidemount at the time. If your students are in sidemount, you must be a Sidemount Instructor.

theskull

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI does not require a TecSidemount cert, or even a Sidemount cert, before undertaking TecDeep or Trimix in Sidemount config. Requirement is that you are proficient in the rig! The certs can be an accelerated method of becoming proficient over figuring it out for yourself, but are in no way required.

1) The tech deep instructor also needs to be a Tec Sidemount instructor.
2) The student is trained on sidemount, rather than backmount, during that training.
3) The tec sidemount course can now be amalgamated with the Tec40/45/50 courses.

My personal opinion is that at entry-level tech (i.e. Tec40), equipment usage is a primary focus of the course. So, there's little harm in running it in sidemount for the tech newbie (they'd be learning backmount doubles anyway).

However, if a student attends for higher level training (i.e. Tec45, Tec50, Tec65, Tec Trimix) with sidemount equipment and no proof of training, then there is a risk that the individual may be overloaded with the rig and fail to achieve necessary progression on the course standards.

In general, I'd want to see both (1) sidemount qualification and (2) in-water assessment to ensure the student was at the required level of proficiency in the kit to begin that level of technical training. That'd mean full technical competency in sidemount diving.

The issue, beyond entry-level courses, is really that the learning experience might become significantly diluted if sidemount competency also becomes a training factor, reducing the achievement of performance standards otherwise laid out by the course.

You do have to be a Sidemount Instructor before teaching students at the TecDeep level if they are in Sidemount config, regardless of your experience, or even whether you yourself are in sidemount at the time. If your students are in sidemount, you must be a Sidemount Instructor.

Correct: PADI Tech Deep Instructor Manual

"Sidemount Option
The Tec 40, Tec 45 and Tec 50 courses may be conducted in open water sidemount configuration
if you have been certified as a sidemount instructor."

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm only quoting this because it directly relates to my question and your avatar pic...

Maybe it's because of how the picture is displayed, but it looks like the diver in the picture is in a configuration(?) which is a larger profile than a back-mounted doubles diver would have, can you please post the full picture?

The picture from which I cropped my avatar: 2x Al80 and 1x AL40



On the same dive, turning point, inside the engine compartment of the USS New York ACR-2



Entry into the engine compartment... this would be a real struggle with backmount doubles and stage/deco..



Note that I took the stage/deco inside for the training value. It's much easier with just two primaries. At no point did I need to partially detach either sidemount primary. To do so vastly increases my ability to pass through tighter restrictions.

Even without pushing the primaries in front (leaving the primaries in bungee), I can go through areas that a backmount diver would significantly struggle with. Allowing full use of sidemount (towing/pushing cylinders) there are large sections of the wreck open to me that are completely inaccessible to backmount divers.



(above) What sidemount boils down to, when penetration is considered...

 

[Pavao]

Thanks for posting it, the original pic definitely offers a different perspective.

The picture from which I cropped my avatar: 2x Al80 and 1x AL40

View attachment 179484

On the same dive, turning point, inside the engine compartment of the USS New York ACR-2

View attachment 179485

Entry into the engine compartment... this would be a real struggle with backmount doubles and stage/deco..

View attachment 179486

Note that I took the stage/deco inside for the training value. It's much easier with just two primaries. At no point did I need to partially detach either sidemount primary. To do so vastly increases my ability to pass through tighter restrictions.

Even without pushing the primaries in front (leaving the primaries in bungee), I can go through areas that a backmount diver would significantly struggle with. Allowing full use of sidemount (towing/pushing cylinders) there are large sections of the wreck open to me that are completely inaccessible to backmount divers.

View attachment 179487

(above) What sidemount boils down to, when penetration is considered...

 

[reghunnicutt]

I dive side mount recreationally and have for about two years. It's partially an age thing (soon 58), bad discs, desire for added gas, desire for redundant systems, and feel of the rig. I like the balance.

I dive Nomad XT by Dive Rite and was taught by Lauren Kieren of TDI. She was a Padi instructor at the time I took the course.

Side mount takes a great deal of tweaking depending on conditions and protection.

Now SM is what I do.....I haven't had on a single in two years.

Reggie in NC

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[victorzamora]

Wookie, if you don't allow doubles of any kind on rec charters then not allowing SM doubles isn't really a valid point in this discussion, right? However, would you allow single tank SM on your rec charters? Why or why not?

As far as training minimums, I think the biggest concerns are gear configuration. A more experienced SM diver and/or SM instructor could point out their structure, but the minimum I'd like to see in a sidemount course is gear configuration options (razor/stealth vs SMS75 vs whatever), gear setup both reg and bc/tank/harness. I'd like to see proper tank alignment a big focus. OOA drills, valve feathering drills, gas management, and some physics. What does lengthening that do? How about lowering this? Not just what, but why.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I realize the benefits if SM but with good basic skills and buddy teams I dont see the need for SM at the recreational level. I choose the tool that I think best fits the job. All of my recreational dives are done with a single BM cylinder. A single cylinder is plenty to keep you within NDLs and shallower then 100'.

I understand what you're saying, but in reality it's irrelevent. Scuba is a recreational activity ... none of us "need" to engage in it at all. People often choose their scuba equipment based not on need, but preference. There are multiple reasons why someone might prefer to dive in sidemount.

You live and dive in Florida. I can assure you that the reasons people choose the equipment they do where I live and dive, in Puget Sound, are very different than the reasons why people do so where you live ... even people diving at the same level of the activity.

We don't serve our clients well by telling them what they "need" ... we serve them best by listening to them telling us what they "want", educating them on the advantages and drawbacks of those choices, and training them how to make the best use of them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

Wookie, if you don't allow doubles of any kind on rec charters then not allowing SM doubles isn't really a valid point in this discussion, right? However, would you allow single tank SM on your rec charters? Why or why not?

As far as training minimums, I think the biggest concerns are gear configuration. A more experienced SM diver and/or SM instructor could point out their structure, but the minimum I'd like to see in a sidemount course is gear configuration options (razor/stealth vs SMS75 vs whatever), gear setup both reg and bc/tank/harness. I'd like to see proper tank alignment a big focus. OOA drills, valve feathering drills, gas management, and some physics. What does lengthening that do? How about lowering this? Not just what, but why.

Correct, it is not a valid point. I believe NetDoc dove a sidemount single with us last year. Quite frankly, as much talk as there is about sidemount, very few have asked about it. Those that have want their tanks lowered to them because of some back problem, which we also don't do. I don't think I'd have a problem with someone diving a sidemount single. I reserve making a policy until I have seen folks with a C-Card, without a C-Card, and figure out if it will be a train wreck or not.

As Dive-aholic stated here or elsewhere, if you're limited to a single, what's the deal with sidemount? Why not just put it conventionally on your back?

 

[DaleC]

Yes, it's a little like telling someone what kind of car they "need". Look around the freeway next time you're there.

 

[Teller]

I realize the benefits if SM but with good basic skills and buddy teams I dont see the need for SM at the recreational level. I choose the tool that I think best fits the job. All of my recreational dives are done with a single BM cylinder. A single cylinder is plenty to keep you within NDLs and shallower then 100'.

I understand what you're saying, but in reality it's irrelevent. Scuba is a recreational activity ... none of us "need" to engage in it at all. People often choose their scuba equipment based not on need, but preference. There are multiple reasons why someone might prefer to dive in sidemount.

You live and dive in Florida. I can assure you that the reasons people choose the equipment they do where I live and dive, in Puget Sound, are very different than the reasons why people do so where you live ... even people diving at the same level of the activity.

We don't serve our clients well by telling them what they "need" ... we serve them best by listening to them telling us what they "want", educating them on the advantages and drawbacks of those choices, and training them how to make the best use of them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I see your points Bob and I am not telling anyone to not use SM. Im simply saying a 40' dive with a good buddy team does not require two tanks. I just dont get why people insist on using SM for everything. You like what you like I guess. The exception here is when you are training for a dive that does require the use of two or more cylinders.