Responsibility of the Intro Instructor

[Bronson]

As for my 2 cents worth.

I am a PADI Dive Master and i would never take a diver me as you described and definitely not on a "twilight" dive. Never happen with me. Even if a certified, which you suggested that she is not, when someone has less not dived in less than 6 months, I want to know that they did a Scuba Review in the pool or confined water and i do a checkout dive. As for the blood in the mask, then the diving is over....done...caput. As for negligence, every dive master has their own jusdgement as ot a person's abilities and i do not have enough information to assess any legal negligence but it would not look good to me as i explained above.

I hope this helps.
regards

 

[*dave*]

So a 14 y/o who takes the SSI Open Water course would have to take another SSI Open Water course to be recognized as an SSI Open Water diver at age 15?

I went to the SSI site and could only find info about Scuba Rangers (age 8-12), but nothing about Jr Open Water.

No, it's basicly an oral exam and a skills dive. I'll usually run 2-3 hours talking to the diver about....diving, do 1-2 hours in the pool, then a skills dive followed by an experience dive with a few skills tossed in.

If the diver hasn't had much experience for the time they've been Jr certified, I may require an extended update with checkouts, which would pretty much amount to retaking the course. Discression is a beautiful thing.

Junior Open Water Diver Standards
(All Open Water Diver Course Standards apply unless noted below.)
1. Content: The Junior Open Water Diver course is the same as the Open Water Diver course with the exception that the student must be at least 10, but no more than 14 years of age.
2. Qualification: The Junior Open Water Diver certification is restricted so the diver may only dive with a certified adult diver. See number 6 for 10 and 11 year old requirements.
3. Upgrade: When an Junior Open Water Diver becomes 15 years old, it is recommended that the Junior upgrade to Open Water Diver by having an oral or written knowledge review and a skills dive with a Dive Leader to ensure that the Junior Diver is ready for the Open Water Diver certification.
It is recommended that Junior Open Water Diver take the course with an adult family member.
Provide proof of certification and proof of at least 4 logged dives in the last 12 months.
— OR —
Provide proof of certification and complete a Scuba Skills Update.
4. Maximum Depth: The maximum depth for 10 and 11 year old during open water scuba training dives is 40 feet (12 meters).
5. Ratio: The maximum number of students for open-water training when 10 or 11 year old students are participating is 4 to 1. Although additional assistants may be used, no additional students may be added to the responsibility of the individual certified Instructor.
6. Junior Diving: Once certified, 10 and 11 year old Junior Open Water Divers must dive with a certified parent or guardian or active dive leader to a maximum depth of 40 feet (12 meters).
The maximum depth for 12 to 14 year old is 60 feet (18 metres)

 

[diver 85]

Get certified before making a dive is my thoughts----stupid people doing stupid things, sometimes lead to stupid outcomes.......

 

[barefootscuba]

Wow!!! This post has been going on for a long time. There are so many areas that are not explained in the story to make an accurate judgment. 1st the Discover course thru PADI is only good for 1year with the same instructor leading another day of diving. That in itself says she should have to go through all the skills and either flip chart or video. As for the class time after you completed her intro dive. If she completed knowledge development 1, 2 and 3 along with confined water 1,2 and 3 and openwater dives 1 and 2. By PADI standards she would be considered a PADI scuba diver and should have been signed off as one. (Which has its limits)

As for the responses from DM's you would or should never be in a situation like this because you are not qualified and would be breaking standards by taking a discover scuba diver in the open ocean in the 1st place. You could take a discover scuba diver under indirect supervision after it is completed by and instructor 1st. But this must still fall in the year.

As for the dive operators on Oahu, there are many that I wouldn’t trust taking a seasoned professional with. You are missing one of the most important parts in this story. What is the company on the Island? This whole thing is missing loads of information.

Most divers don’t want to give out a name because they think they are doing something unethical. You could be saving someone’s life by letting them know about a company.

To those who may not know, we had a diver die last Thursday 10th on the Waianae coast side of the Island. It is very interested that the newspaper doesn’t even list the company’s name that was taking out the charter.

It seems as though you want to know if they can hold you liable and I don’t believe so. As for the other Instructor, he more than likely broke many standards and PADI will more than likely cover his but and settle out of court if she went that far. That is if he has insurance.

Happy dives

 

[Bronson]

to Barefooscuba. Thank you. You are so right as Dm i am not qualified to teach. i stand corrected.

 

[RonFrank]

The entire concept of "Discover SCUBA Diving" is nothing but a plan to separate tourists from their money without the "inconvenience" of having to sit through OW class, and it comes at the expense of the safety of the tourists.

While I may agree with this, the reality is that there are folks in the water right now doing Discover Dives.

Rather than just suggesting that this type of class should not exist, is it not better acknowledge that it does, to make suggestions for making it safer?

 

[Web Monkey]

While I may agree with this, the reality is that there are folks in the water right now doing Discover Dives.

Rather than just suggesting that this type of class should not exist, is it not better acknowledge that it does, to make suggestions for making it safer?

Currently, even a "full" OW cert, which can be obtained in a weekend, does not guarantee that the diver can even perform a real mask clear in OW without panicking. It only means that that the diver did it once in front of the instructor, when prompted.

DSD is much shorter than even the weekend OW class and covers less. I'm happy for anybody that took DSD, liked it had a good time and got certified, however this is only evidence of luck, not safety.

DSD could be made safer by doing it in the shallow end of the pool with supervision, however nobody would pay for it and it would cut into resort revenue.

Terry

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Wow!!! This post has been going on for a long time. There are so many areas that are not explained in the story to make an accurate judgment. 1st the Discover course thru PADI is only good for 1year with the same instructor leading another day of diving. That in itself says she should have to go through all the skills and either flip chart or video. As for the class time after you completed her intro dive. If she completed knowledge development 1, 2 and 3 along with confined water 1,2 and 3 and openwater dives 1 and 2. By PADI standards she would be considered a PADI scuba diver and should have been signed off as one. (Which has its limits)

And now with your post it will likely continue even longer past it's recommended expiration date.

There is no evidence or testimony to indicate the dive shop did anything other than their typical Intro Dive/Night Manta Snorkel (for $200). The fact that the skills were conducted hanging on the line, at the surface, at the back of the boat, in 20 fsw, is unfortunately not a violation of Standards as evidenced by all the charter operators who do this daily around the world.

As for me not signing her off as PADI Scuba Diver after her second Open Water dive with me, please see the below quote from the PADI Instructor Manual.

Student divers must demonstrate mastery of performance requirements in each dive before progressing to the next. During the Open Water Dives, mastery is defined as performing the skills so it meets the performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable fluid repeatable manner as would be expected of a typical Open Water Diver.

As for the dive operators on Oahu, there are many that I wouldn’t trust taking a seasoned professional with. You are missing one of the most important parts in this story. What is the company on the Island? This whole thing is missing loads of information.

Did you read and comprehend the entire thread before making your post

Most divers don’t want to give out a name because they think they are doing something unethical. You could be saving someone’s life by letting them know about a company.

Did you read and comprehend the entire thread before making your post

It seems as though you want to know if they can hold you liable and I don’t believe so. As for the other Instructor, he more than likely broke many standards and PADI will more than likely cover his but and settle out of court if she went that far. That is if he has insurance.

Did you read and comprehend the entire thread before making your post

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

To those who may not know, we had a diver die last Thursday 10th on the Waianae coast side of the Island. It is very interested that the newspaper doesn’t even list the company’s name that was taking out the charter.

Do you know some details that you could share? I saw the less than informative notices from both newspapers and some TV stations and until further info surfaces I figured it was probably a private boat, maybe even a fish collector on his 5th +100' dive of the day (not uncommon near Kaena Point).

I have pictures of a Coast Guard helicopter basket-ing a bent fish collector offshore from the Drop Zone years ago. From the grapevine intel it was the 5th +100' dive for that old guy in a Hawaiian Sling rig, and no information ever hit newspaper or TV.

If it was a charter boat I would expect more info; pray tell us if you know more!

 

[jviehe]

to Barefooscuba. Thank you. You are so right as Dm i am not qualified to teach. i stand corrected.

To clarify, you are not qualified to teach uncertified divers in open water. You are qualified to teach them in confined water, and to lead them in Open Water after an instructor has done so first.