"Riding your Computer Up" vs. "Lite Deco"

[dmaziuk]

With tables, I could sort of understand why deco was not addressed in any detail since the tables used for recreational courses were not designed for it beyond the "emergency" contingency. But with the switch to computers courses would it not be possible to continue to emphasize staying in NDL but also reviewing, at least in the classroom, how a dive computer would manage unplanned deco so the new diver would recognize it and not panic if it happened. And taking the emergency context out. Or is this already done?

(Thank you @lowviz for starting a thread that made me dig out the books and review them.)

The 2010 PADI OW manual is fairly clear that it teaches no stop diving and that in the context of a no stop dive, a mandatory stop constitutes an emergency. It recommends 5m/8min stop for NDL violation < 5 min and 5m/15min for > 5 min for when you don't have a plan, nor a computer. If you have a computer, it says to RTFM as different ones work differently.

"Use and choose dive computer" is a separate booklet in my set. It also says that deco is an emergency and is best to avoid, follow your computer's instructions, and to be on the safe side, avoid diving for 24 hours.

So as @boulderjohn says: it is covered.

 

[boulderjohn]

Read the similar warnings in the computer manuals. Some of them come close to saying you will die if you s

The 2010 PADI OW manual is fairly clear that it teaches no stop diving and that in the context of no stop dive, a mandatory stop constitutes an emergency. It recommends 5m/8min stop for NDL violation < 5 min and 5m/15min for > 5 min for when you don't have a plan, nor a computer. If you have a computer, it says to RTFM as different ones work differently.

Your course was the transition one, when they used the old manual with the table instructions but added the additional book. As instructors, we had to make sure students understood when to stop reading one and when to start reading the other. The current book has everything included in one book, and it no longer teaches the tables.

The table instructions for emergency deco were quite severe in comparison to what would happen using a computer, but they had to be. Because the RDP did not include decompression at all, once you violated a limit you were completely off the table, and they had to find a way to get you back on it. You did not mention it, but the <5 minute violation also called for a 6 hour surface interval after the dive. If you look at the table, you will see that 6 hours is the maximum time it takes to wash out--go from a Z diver to the end of the A diver designation.

 

[uncfnp]

(Thank you @lowviz for starting a thread that made me dig out the books and review them.)

The 2010 PADI OW manual is fairly clear that it teaches no stop diving and that in the context of a no stop dive, a mandatory stop constitutes an emergency. It recommends 5m/8min stop for NDL violation < 5 min and 5m/15min for > 5 min for when you don't have a plan, nor a computer. If you have a computer, it says to RTFM as different ones work differently.

"Use and choose dive computer" is a separate booklet in my set. It also says that deco is an emergency and is best to avoid, follow your computer's instructions, and to be on the safe side, avoid diving for 24 hours.

So as @boulderjohn says: it is covered.

Read the similar warnings in the computer manuals. Some of them come close to saying you will die if you s

Your course was the transition one, when they used the old manual with the table instructions but added the additional book. As instructors, we had to make sure students understood when to stop reading one and when to start reading the other. The current book has everything included in one book, and it no longer teaches the tables.

The table instructions for emergency deco were quite severe in comparison to what would happen using a computer, but they had to be. Because the RDP did not include decompression at all, once you violated a limit you were completely off the table, and they had to find a way to get you back on it. You did not mention it, but the <5 minute violation also called for a 6 hour surface interval after the dive. If you look at the table, you will see that 6 hours is the maximum time it takes to wash out--go from a Z diver to the end of the A diver designation.

Exactly. My OW course in 2009 stressed tables. I knew of and even used a computer for my dives but computers were not the primary focus. My point is that deco was considered an emergency and treated as such. I am glad to hear that with the computer course this is no longer true.

Certainly a healthy respect for deco should be instilled in the new diver but not out right fear nor the near mystique aura that deco diving had in my OW course.

 

[Ayisha]

When PADI revised their OW course a few years ago, they put new emphasis on every one of the skills in that list, without exception. They needed to. The old course was especially weak on buoyancy skills. There was almost no requirement for neutral buoyancy swimming in the OW course. Many instructors went far beyond those minimums, but many did not. That has all changed by quite a bit, although I greatly fear that many instructors are just repeating the old class with minor tweaks. Here are some highlights of the changes:

1. There is a much greater emphasis on teaching both buoyancy and trim. In the old course materials, there was neither a still picture nor video of anyone diving while neutrally buoyant and in good trim--everything showed people doing skills while kneeling. Now there are no kneeling pictures, and there are many shots of proper buoyancy and trim swimming. The course requirements call for more hovering and more neutral buoyancy swimming. The final OW dive has no required skills at all--students are supposed to plan and execute a dive with the instructor just following to make sure everything goes OK.
2. For parts of the pool sessions, students are supposed to treat the bottom of the pool as a sensitive marine environment that they are not allowed to touch in any way.
3. Buddy awareness is a major part of the course, including during extended practice diving in the pool sessions.
4. More mask skills were added.
5. Gas planning procedures were added to the academic portion of the class. During both the pool sessions and the OW sessions, the buddy teams (and instructor) are supposed to ask divers for their current gas levels frequently, and the students are expected to reply with reasonable accuracy without looking at their gauges because they had only recently checked on their own.
6. The OOA exercises were changed to add more practice ascending while sharing air, and a surprise air sharing exercise was added to a free swimming portion of the class.

Were these changes to the OW course not just in a letter to PADI pros but also in the Standards?

If they are all in the standards, they are still not being adhered to across the board. I recently witnessed parts of an OW course and then AOW course with 4 students, and the instructor was vertical over the whole week and even stood on the bottom, and the students did the same. I never saw the instructor or students in any better than diagonal trim. All skills that I saw were while kneeling on the sand. They were also quite overweighted. I believe this was the worst training that I've ever seen.

The students noticed that my buddy and I dove differently from the instructor and asked us in the last half of the week how they could look as in control as us and why our equipment was a little different. They each came to me with weighting issues (ie can't stop finning and sculling) and we got them weighted correctly and balanced. They imitated our trim and let go of the line beside us and practiced maintaining static trim during their safety stop. Each day they improved but they still had some way to go. I believe that by being ambassadors of our sport, and setting a good example and mentoring other divers, they realize that there are more efficient ways to dive and emulate what they see and possibly seek out further, better instruction than what they may have had.

 

[boulderjohn]

Were these changes to the OW course not just in a letter to PADI pros but also in the Standards?

If they are all in the standards, they are still not being adhered to across the board. I recently witnessed parts of an OW course and then AOW course with 4 students, and the instructor was vertical over the whole week and even stood on the bottom, and the students did the same. I never saw the instructor or students in any better than diagonal trim. All skills that I saw were while kneeling on the sand. They were also quite overweighted. I believe this was the worst training that I've ever seen.

The students noticed that my buddy and I dove differently from the instructor and asked us in the last half of the week how they could look as in control as us and why our equipment was a little different. They each came to me with weighting issues (ie can't stop finning and sculling) and we got them weighted correctly and balanced. They imitated our trim and let go of the line beside us and practiced maintaining static trim during their safety stop. Each day they improved but they still had some way to go. I believe that by being ambassadors of our sport, and setting a good example and mentoring other divers, they realize that there are more efficient ways to dive and emulate what they see and possibly seek out further, better instruction than what they may have had.

Instructors can still teach on the knees. I don't like it, but they can. Students are supposed to be properly weighted in the course, but if you teach on the knees, the students MUST be overweighted, because they cannot stay on their knees if properly weighted.

All the other requirements are indeed in the standards. As I said in another post somewhere today, I fear that a lot of instructors are still doing things the way they always did and just making token adjustments to the class. In one of the videos students see as part of the new course, they see an instructor adjust their weights by putting weights in trim pockets to get the students to horizontal trim.

I don't doubt what you saw. I have seen it myself, I'm sorry to say.

 

[KevinNM]

If they are all in the standards, they are still not being adhered to across the board. I recently witnessed parts of an OW course and then AOW course with 4 students, and the instructor was vertical over the whole week and even stood on the bottom, and the students did the same. I never saw the instructor or students in any better than diagonal trim. All skills that I saw were while kneeling on the sand. They were also quite overweighted. I believe this was the worst training that I've ever seen.

I've been doing training in Blue Grotto and have seen an entire class standing on the 20ft platform. It's really awful.

 

[lermontov]

The problem with most agency curriculums is that they don't continually assess and progress diver ability, especially in respect to fundamental skills.

Perhaps divers just get too familiar with mainstream agencies 'never saying no' and it leads to false assumptions that the restrictions applied to them are entirely superficial ('Put Another Dollar In' etc) and not the result of having enjoyed an limitless rise through a curriculum which at no time asks them to improve and demonstrate fundamental competencies.

This, of course, leads to a situation where there are zero ability-based limitations on continuation training through the entire mainstream curriculum of courses.

Put simply, the diver needn't ever concern themselves with actually 'getting better' before enrolling upon, and graduating from, any course throughout the recreational syllabus.

very good summary!

Ive been to holiday resorts where adverts say 'learn to scuba dive in day ' its hardly surprising that diving is seen as alternative activity to ten pin bowling or rock climbing all clambering for that tourist dollar- its a purposed decision to cut the diving apprenticeship process into biteable sections like a smorgasbord so that each can take what we fancy, a bit of this and a bit of that not quite getting a balanced meal

For better or worse scuba is marketed as an easy anyone can do activity, dive shops and instructors all keen for you to 'sign here' not realising how tenuous it all is and it can all go horribly wrong very quickly. Extra courses are pushed -'if you want to dive there you need this cert etc'
nothing wrong with courses but like a big underwater Janga lots of certificates but no or little foundation or understanding

For those that want to pursue excellence and adventure the training course are important and finding a good mentor/instructor is (for me) cheap insurance until we 'come of age'
Not all do, many (most) just want to have it as an option if they feel like a dive when they go on vacation- they dont care if their skills are lacking and they dont gain enough understanding to know when theyre getting into deep water, ignorance is bliss so to speak. I doubt it will change unless the emphasis from the top changes and I cant see any changes that jeopardise that machine

So it comes down to LDS and independent teachers who have a dream to be a dive instructor and train others to be divers
Employees do not have the same view as the business owner so it really comes down to individual passion for the sport. Individual instructors that have time to nurture those who they can identify as those divers who want to learn and progress to be competent

I was never intending to be a diver I just thought it was something to do as an add on to my holiday. I have owned and run a number of business' over the years and something I heard from the course instructor when I did my OW course stunned me - He said that 80% of people who attended a course gave up after a year . My knowledge of diving at that time was zero- but I knew intuitively that something was horribly wrong with the dive industry.

Im in a fortunate position - I have the time, finances and motivation to dive regularly- not all do but even more fortunate is that i discovered something that captivated me - wreck diving, together with a dive instructor that I gelled with. Maybe new divers just lack some of those key ingredients Time -finances -motivation- interesting dive sites - a good instructor to stimulate them into wanting to get better. But it can be like flogging a dead horse, some folk just dont want or care to improve and I suspect part of the frustration is those who are passionate about the sport wanting them to become a mature and complete diver. its just not going to happen for all.

You could rehash the curriculum it might help, it probably wont do any harm but i think the person who will inspire OW diver to go further and improved is the enthusiasm, energy and ROLE MODELLING of the instructor, having said that hard too inspire if your taking them to a boring dive site

As for me Im happy to spend money on good instruction and courses and Ive probably done over 70 dives with the same tech instructor - were now friends and dive together on new adventures outside of training.

 

[KevinNM]

Scuba and surfing have similar turn-over stats. Something like 40% of the total people involved at any given time have been doing it for a year or less. If you can figure out how to break that cycle you could make a fortune.

 

[Bob DBF]

Scuba and surfing have similar turn-over stats. Something like 40% of the total people involved at any given time have been doing it for a year or less. If you can figure out how to break that cycle you could make a fortune.

You might have to change human nature. Between people that just want a bucket list check off, ones that find it too technical, too hard, and so on.

Over the years I seen a few and have met many more that got into a situation diving that scared them out the sport. Getting caught in an incident while diving beyond ones abilities is a reality check, and most think it is enough to just walk away.

A few of my buddys, over the years quit due to health issues, changing priorities in their lives, or old age. Old age is catching up to me.

Having more divers like me will not make a fortune for anyone. I shore dive locally, I use my gear 'till it's dead, I buy used, if I buy new it will be on sale or closeout. Occasionally I will get in a boat in SoCal, and I have seen the Caribbean but once since the '60's. Oh yeah, and I'm getting so my current gear will probably outlast me.



Bob
-----------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[boulderjohn]

Colorado annually has the most or nearly the most certified divers per capita in the United States, according to DEMA statistics. Whenever I teach an OW class, I ask the students why they are learning to dive. The overwhelming majority, perhaps 80%, say they want to get certified because they are going on a specific vacation to a specific location on a specific date. Once that is done, will they ever dive again? I have also taught a number of refresher courses, and I always ask about the history. A huge number say they learned to dive years before, got married, had children, etc., etc. etc. now that the children are grown, they are taking a vacation to a place that features diving, and they want to give it another shot.