Safety Risk for Children on dive boats

[gcarter]

In general I agree. Though I have posted before on my idea that 10-12-even 14 is too young for kids to be diving--which is a very minority opinion. When we are in the casinos in Miss. I occasionally see young kids there, of course with parents--yes there is in one casino an arcade for them. But it is puzzling why parents would even take, like, 8 year olds into a casino, as opposed to getting a sitter and then doing their gambling.
If a kid is certified and will be diving that may be OK, but it seems we're talking about their safety while one the boat, not under it.

Yes, the OP was talking about bubble watchers, not divers. I do not want to have to watch out for kids underfoot while diving, and I doubt very much the crew do either. I did not impose my kids on others just to make my own life easier and I resent it when others do it to me. If I boarded a boat that had kids underfoot I would immediately ask for a refund and find another operator. And I like kids. I just think that there is a time and a place.

My first (last) trip to Vegas I was appalled to see idiots dragging newborns, infants and toddlers through the casinos at most every time of the day or night. Very selfish people.

 

[T.C.]

I dont what your point is but I heard the incident being discussed on my radio and my child was on the boat. You seem to know more about it than I do, so carry on. Hopefully you realize as well as I do that I could be hearing radio chatter midway relaying the incident.

Sure. Can you name small vessels that would have an interest in being 'midway' between these two islands? Because that looks to be open ocean.

If you are so well-versed in the Hawaiian Islands, how did you confuse Molakia and Lanai?

If your child was involved, how do you not know these things which do pertain to you- like being out of contact, or what the boat was doing? My point is that your example is either incorrect, invalid, or false. Let's leave it at that; as I have no desire to dig it deeper- I don't like the implications that I'm seeing.

Many of the children that live in Hawaii can swim circles around mainland divers on vacation so you will probably encounter some kids on the dive boats.

There is probably some small segment of them; but I doubt that kids there are much different from kids on the mainland. Like them, a child's endurance is much less than that of an adults. But, let's leave this complex behind as we move forward.

The scuba culture has really changed, has it gotten safer?

The unequivocal answer to that is Yes. Diving has gotten safer over the years.

Typically, in my experience, the kids go a couple times, observe, get interested (or not) and then they might snorkel during the parents surface interval and the next thing you know they are doing a class.

Should children be exposed to diving and the ocean. Of course.
Should they be present on a dive boat? No.
These are not the same things. A child's interest in diving and the ocean can be facilitated through many other venues; such as: shore-diving with the family, pool time with some gear, aquarium visits, dropping Mom off at the dive boat, going to the dive shop with Dad, watching Grandma's dive pictures, helping Grandpa identify the fish from his last trip, listening to the excitement of Brother's retelling of his dive with the shark, snorkeling with their sister, etc, etc, etc.

What will they gain from watching Mom/Dad/Grandma/Grandpa/Brother/Sister fall off the boat and disappear for an hour? Most kids I know can't maintain interest for that long.

Like most interests; the best way to encourage them on the path to being a diver is continuous exposure to diving related topics- not boring them to death with sea-sickness.

 

[Mrs. B]

Yes okay, never accompanied the Molokai Hoe either the whole thing was fabricated

 

[T.C.]

Yes okay, never accompanied the Molokai Hoe either the whole thing was fabricated

As I said, I don't want to dig into your example, I don't like to make those implications against you if I were to do so.

It isn't a relevant example, as it cites one case, and invalidates itself as an example by stating that counseling was needed.

It is irrelevant as the likelihood of a diver dying while the child is on board is very small. Much greater is the risk to the child of harm, followed by the child getting in the way/damaging anything.

So, back to the subject; why, in your view, does a 5-10 year old who is not participating in the activities need to be present on the boat?

 

[tomcatbubba]

A riding horse isn't a farm animal, it's a large pet. Hobby ranching isn't the same either.

I'm not convinced you understand the risks of children alongside farm animals- or of bringing children along who are not there to participate in the same activities.

"the USCG actually held them out there off Molakai for two full days without cell service and it was a quite an ordeal."

Are you stating that the United States Coast Guard detained the boat on the water off the shores of Molakai for 48 hours?

Well put. I had a dear friend lose his six year old a few years ago. They were at a small petting farm and a pony kicked him in the throat. I run 300 pound male goats. When they are in heat they are downright dangerous to a full grown adult. Kids have no place around livestock.

I don't subscribe to the hippy-dippy new age drivel that says if kids aren't having fun their entire life, we are somehow bad parents. There are just places I won't and don't take my kids. That doesn't make me a bad parent.

A dive boat is one of those places. I cannot fathom leaving my 6 or 8 year old unattended topside while I was diving. I would be worried sick they might fall overboard, bother someone, get hurt. Plus, who the hell vetted the people topside you would be leaving them with? Even on the ride out, I've seen tank ranks slide in rough seas, and if not for quick reflexes of the guests, some would have missed toes or a foot. A kid would have been killed.

 

[Mrs. B]

You guys are...very dramatic

You might settle down as your children get a little older. I just have a different world view since my folks took us diving every holiday from a very young age and then all four of us went on to take al of our children. Things are changing but I am not sure it is for the better because I hear increasing complaints from active parents about kids being excluded.

I think it is also very bizarre your implications about me “not knowing names of boats” or that I could not have heard radio traffic that day. It sort of makes my point though about how divers will gravitate into a certain culture. Anyone that has ever had a child jump horses knows of accidents so I don’t know why your anecdote is supposed to convince me kids shouldn’t ride along on boats or “be around farm animals.”

I’m really grateful that all the children in our family are divers and I have greatly enjoyed photographing kids in the water on surface intervals. So while some people might find them annoying, I always really valued how they added to the experience.

As I sit here today, worried about my eighty year old dad catching the flu, I am just so thankful about the way he raised us, always advocating for us, always taking us on fun adventures.
It’s only after a few generations that you can observe the benefits which extend past the scuba community. My mom got her pilots license seven months pregnant, so I bet there were many back then that did not approve of that either.

Cheers!

 

[outofofficebrb]

Hi, @Mrs. B.

No one is disagreeing with your idea about exposing a child to diving or the importance of fostering an appreciation of nature, the ocean, and the next generation of divers. Many of us feel that there is a specific time and place for it and it may or may not be on a dive boat. The main question here is whether children on a dive boat that is run by an operator/dive charter is appropriate - a business - and not whether each of us as individuals would want children on a dive boat, whether the boat is our own or as a passenger, paying or not. The question originated because of liability and business concerns. It is the goal of every business to minimize liability and risks. Having passengers on a boat, period, increases liability and risk. Children, more so than adults, pose more of a liability and risk. It is not about good/bad parenting choices, what one family chooses to do or not, or what is socially preferred/acceptable, etc.

 

[Mrs. B]

emogra

Hi, @Mrs. B.

No one is disagreeing with your idea about exposing a child to diving or the importance of fostering an appreciation of nature, the ocean, and the next generation of divers. Many of us feel that there is a specific time and place for it and it may or may not be on a dive boat. The main question here is whether children on a dive boat that is run by an operator/dive charter is appropriate - a business - and not whether each of us as individuals would want children on a dive boat, whether the boat is our own or as a passenger, paying or not. The question originated because of liability and business concerns. It is the goal of every business to minimize liability and risks. Having passengers on a boat, period, increases liability and risk. Children, more so than adults, pose more of a liability and risk. It is not about good/bad parenting choices, what one family chooses to do or not, or what is socially preferred/acceptable, etc.

Thank you for your comment, I get it.

I was just trying to weigh in from a consumer's point of view and make several points about what could be a significant lost revenue stream when new divers are not carefully cultivated. Some have been quite critical of me, accused me of falsifying an example, and I am reminded of how much the diving business model has changed the experience of families diving together. "May or may not," I would agree with. I am sure you realize we have some very big water in Hawaii but I never personally witnessed a big liabity issue of children vs adults on boats and spent nine years there, raised children and owned a boat. If commercial boat captains do not want children, this is well within their rights and I mentioned that a couple of times. If I was a business owner, I would be a little more cognizant of where divers travel to dive, and why.

I think the hinting around that I would fabricate the death incident is in really poor taste.
At some point, experienced divers ask themselves what kind of people they want to pay to dive with.
I feel the topic was not debated in a friendly respectful way by some here.
If you are a commercial captain, it might be short sighted to believe it only comes down to money and liabilty if you are losing business that you are not even aware of. I'd estimate a majority of divers today will not be diving in 5-10 years, it seems that is already happening. I'd love to see this demographic charted as Americans age, have fewer children, etc.

 

[JohnnyC]

No kids on the dive boat. I'm sure your little Timmy is just the perfect picture of maturity and politeness, but guess what, little Sarah is a f*cking terror, little Johnny want to drink bilge water, and little Mary is throwing life vests over the side because they make a pretty splash.

No kids because you don't make policy based on exceptions, especially when liability is concerned. You want to give Frank a million dollars to bring your wallet-draining crap factory onto his boat? I'm sure he'd make an exception, but it doesn't mean he'd be happy about it. Hell, he might not even make the exception.

 

[T.C.]

You guys are...very dramatic

No, just realistic. I'm glad to hear that you've never witnessed a child getting hurt.

I think it is also very bizarre your implications about me “not knowing names of boats” or that I could not have heard radio traffic that day.

You're starting to grate on me. You don't want to go down this road, as it will not go the way you think it will go. Let's leave it alone, Ok?

Your example has no bearing on the course of the discussion, nor on children. As I said, It isn't a relevant example, as it cites one case, and invalidates itself as an example by stating that counseling was needed. It is irrelevant as the likelihood of a diver dying while the child is on board is very small. Much greater is the risk to the child of harm, followed by the child getting in the way/damaging anything.

Anyone that has ever had a child jump horses knows of accidents so I don’t know why your anecdote is supposed to convince me kids shouldn’t ride along on boats or “be around farm animals.”

Because, as you don't understand; a horse, even one for equestrian sports, is not a farm animal, it is a pet. The odds of it attacking a human out of anger or fear are very small. You don't understand that livestock is not a pet.

....my folks took us diving every holiday
.... to take al of our children....
.. all the children in our family are divers...

That's all wonderful. But as you continue to not understand, they are participating in the sport.

So, back to the subject; why, in your view, does a 5-10 year old who is NOT participating in the activities need to be present on the boat with all the other paying customers?

You have lots of great examples from your own boat. We're not talking about your own boat, we're talking commercial craft.

If you are a commercial captain, it might be short sighted to believe it only comes down to money and liabilty if you are losing business that you are not even aware of.

And there may also be a much greater loss of revenue- especially in Hawaii- from those of us who don't want to deal with your perfect angels mucking up our dive vacation. If I'm on a multiday trip, and have to deal with your kids, I won't be back, and will fault the operator for bringing them. That is much more revenue than they could gain from a new diver in 5 years.

Small businesses don't invest that far ahead, and there is no guarantee that those kids will dive, that they will learn in that city, or even learn from that shop. They don't sign a letter of intent, and they don't guarantee they will be there to learn. There is no profit in alienating current customers for a potential customer. That only sets up that the customer will be there, but the business will not. Small Businesses need to generate constant income- your ideas don't support that.

So, back to the subject; why, in your view, does a 5-10 year old who is NOT participating in the activities need to be present on the boat with all the other paying customers?