SCUBA PRO from MK20 to MK25

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Yes, there are special tools to do just about everything, but unless you know what this odd looking piece of machined metal is used for, it just sits there in a box. Then, what do you use? Hmmmm? As many people on this board are quick to point out, a large number of techs are complete idiots. Unfortunately, I get to clean up after a number of the techs at the shop I work for - I could go on for days describing the crap I've seen pass for a serviced reg. These are the techs that just use a steel pick to shove the o-rings in. Unfortunately, for SP, if one of their certified techs finds something damaged internally (even if they did it), SP replaces it under warranty. So, the apparent result of a survey of their techs showed that the body of the Mk10 was damaged because of the difficulty of replacing this o-ring. SP spent alot of money replacing these bodies, so they made a change that would supposedly fix the problem. Hence, the bushing system. I think it sucks.

BTW, the "inside bushing" issue is addressed in the SP seminars. I don't believe it's in the manuals. One side has molding marks and can't form a seal against the captured o-ring. I guess it's things like this little tidbit that help convince people that they need the class. :boom:
 
BTW, the "inside bushing" issue is addressed in the SP seminars. I don't believe it's in the manuals. One side has molding marks and can't form a seal against the captured o-ring. I guess it's things like this little tidbit that help convince people that they need the class.

You'll only put one together the wrong way once! :)

(The leak is to ambient, so its not dangerous, and is immediately apparent when you put pressure to the stage...)
 
Zaphod once bubbled...
If anybody's interested, PM me and I'll send you Engineering Bulletin #272 describing all of the changes in the Mk25.

I'll send you a PM as this would be nice to have.

I always wondered where the bright idea for the bushings came from in the Mk 15, 20 and 25 as it seemed a far less parsimonious solution to a high pressure seal and I had never encountered a problem with the MK 10.

I also have the tool from Peterbuilt. It makes changing the o-ring easier but to be honest I originally bought the tool to service my Mk 15 with the other end. I have to agree that changing the Mk 10 o-ring was not a problem even without the tool with a little care.

I got my Mk 20 D400 and MK 25 D400 used and got great deals on both ($125 and $175 respectively) and thought I would give them a try. However I still use a MK 10 for really cold water (35 degrees or so) in mid winter and have been diving both my Mk 20 and 25 with the understanding that they will probably get sold to someone else the first time they freeflow on me (I have several MK 10's in the closet).
 
Other than the afore mentioned external adjustment, there are numerous changes to the Mk25 piston specifcally addressing cold water performance. This includes changes in material and design for two parts in the bushing system, several changes to the piston base cap, and mirror polishing the piston stem. I haven't heard whether or not these changes really help, but the piston upgrade is available for the Mk20.

I just looked at this and one thing is blindingly clear - there is a stunning lack of understanding of some of the issues here, while there is a good understanding of other parts of it.

Basically, my personal opinion is that this is a band-aid attempt and an abortion on top of it. A big part of the problem appears to have been caused by SP going to the "bushing" system in the first place.

Basic thermodynamics explain how all this happens. Gas cools when it expands. The cooling happens at the site of expansion. In the case of a piston reg, this is at the edge of the piston and seat.

This is a dry area (inside the HP portion of the reg) and as a consequence the air is extremely cold (the higher the tank pressure the colder!) and the heat removal so generated is transmitted to the piston at the knife-edge. This does no harm because there is no water in that portion of the reg.

The problem comes about in that the piston is made of a highly-conductive substance (stainless steel) and as such it cools along its length by conduction and by heat transferrance to the gas along its length. As soon as the HP O-ring is encountered, the other side of the piston is immersed in water (the balance chamber.) It is here that the piston is at its coldest, and where ice will form first. This is also a bad place for ice to form, as if it sticks to the piston shaft it can bind the piston in the O-ring bore, preventing the seat from closing. That happening produces the classic freeze-up freeflow event.

SP's mirror-polishing of the piston shaft is a real attempt to address this, by reducing the ability of ice to "stick" to the shaft, and therefore reducing the risk of the shaft binding in the bore. Good - so far.

Unfortunately the bushings do the opposite thing; the ribs give the ice a place to "stick", which tends to counteract the good! Plastic has crappy thermal conductivity, so the huge thermal mass of the case (which is kept above freezing by the water around the case) cannot help melt the ice that may form in the immediate area of the O-ring. Argh! So we have one good thing and one bad..... let's keep going.

Further down the piston shaft towards the head of the piston, the "big end", there are two things conspiring AGAINST ice formation:

1. The water will tend to transfer heat to the metal of the piston incrementally from the point of the O-ring back.

2. The thermal mass of the big end of the piston is very large compared to that of the shaft. It therefore is unlikely to be a source of freezing until extreme amounts of ice are already in play at the HP O-ring site. As a conseqence all this claptrap of creating a "sealed room" is likely for naught, and in fact may be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, as that bushing provides thermal INSULATION of the big end of the piston - exactly the opposite of what you want! You WANT the water in the ambient chamber to (1) circulate, and (2) add heat to the piston by conduction. It cannot do so if you insulate the big end of the piston!

I wish I had an easy way to bring a significant quantity (like a hottub worth) of water to near-freezing (say, 40F or so) and run some tests. Specifically, it would be interesting to compare performance of the Mk10, the Mk25 with the "cap" and "sleeve" REMOVED, and the Mk25 with all their "fun stuff" in there for comparative icing and attempt to provoke intentional icing incidents.

This winter, when we have outside temps near freezing, I may be able to arrange the water conditions necessary in my pool for some controlled tests, and can use my long hose to keep the second stage out of the water and breathe through it.
 
An experiment like you suggest would be a very good idea. I would however suggest free flowing the regs at a constant rate and seeing how long it takes for each reg to freeze and uncontrollably free flow. (the MK 10, assuming a fully silicone filled ambient pressure chamber won't freeze at all based on my experience using them to fill severl lift bags at depth in 40 degree water.) This will remove the possibility of tester bias that could occur with the tester breathing differently from each reg.

If breathing patterns are something you want to include, you would need to eliminate test bias by covering the first stage so the tester does not know which one he is currently testing.

I have considered borrowing the MK25 AF from my buddy and running some comparative in water tests to see why his freezes and my Mk 20 and Mk 25 have not on the same dives. I would like to see if a difference in breathing patterns, second stage used etc, are contributing factors.

It would just be really helpful if Scubapro would just do some proper gear tests somewhere other than warm water environments. I'd be happy to loan them my boat and also do the testing for them.
 
An experiment like you suggest would be a very good idea. I would however suggest free flowing the regs at a constant rate and seeing how long it takes for each reg to freeze and uncontrollably free flow. (the MK 10, assuming a fully silicone filled ambient pressure chamber won't freeze at all based on my experience using them to fill severl lift bags at depth in 40 degree water.) This will remove the possibility of tester bias that could occur with the tester breathing differently from each reg.

It will be difficult to get an exactly equal flow rate, but I will attempt it. What I am going to try to set up will have a metering valve on a second stage hose, ANOTHER second stage (as a pressure relief valve!), and an IP gauge.

I will then use some common breathing rates at depth with each of the reg sets (and I will NOT fill the Mk10 with grease first!) in an attempt to find out how much each of these things helps or hurts, and will also take the "large end" garbage out of the Mk25 (I think I can do this without compromising it otherwise) and see if that helps - or hurts.

Alas this will have to wait until roughly February!
 
nope. other than preferring the way that SP has the hoses come off the first stage, i like the sherwood just fine. i had read that the SPs flowed much better at depth, but i'm willing to trade that for having a reg that doesn't freeflow at cold depths. (5 ice dives, no freeflows)
 
I would not use ANY piston reg without a sealed environment chamber.

The Sherwoods have the dry bleed system - its only problem is that if you do "bombing runs" (extremely quick decents) you can overrun its ability to keep up and the reg can breathe a bit stiff until it catches up.

That is the ONLY "gotcha" of their design that I am aware of.
 

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