• Welcome to ScubaBoard


  1. Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

    Benefits of registering include

    • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
    • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
    • You can make this box go away

    Joining is quick and easy. Login or Register now by clicking on the button

Scuba symbol owned by anyone?

Discussion in 'Non-Diving Related Stuff' started by Jake, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. Jake

    Jake Divemaster

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: CA
    457
    69
    28
    Strange question: does anyone know if the dive symbol--either US or international--is owned by anyone (as in a trademarked/registered symbol)? The more direct question is if I want to use it in something commercial, do I have to pay someone for the ability to do so?
     
  2. The Kraken

    The Kraken He Who Glows in the Dark Waters (ADVISOR) ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Roswell/Alpharetta, GA
    11,156
    86
    48
    Nope, it is not copyrighted.

    The gentleman who devised the "Diver Down" scuba/flag symbol currently owns the dive operation at Vortex Spring, FL.

    "Doc" Dockery and his wife, Ruth, live on the premises and are wonderful people.

    If you ever get down to FL make it a point to go to Vortex and, if you can, meet Doc and have a chat with him. He is a most intelligent fellow.

    the K
     
  3. Rick Murchison

    Rick Murchison Trusty Shellback Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Gulf of Mexico
    13,348
    553
    113
    I assume you're talking about the red and white "Diver Down" flag. I know Kraken is...
    And no, there are no restrictions to its use, other than those having to do with its *actual* use on the water. (It is illegal, for example, to fly the diver down flag when you're motoring along without divers down :) )
    Rick
     
  4. Sam Miller III

    Sam Miller III Scuba Legend Scuba Legend

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: CALIFORNIA: Where recreational diving began!
    4,898
    3,588
    113
    I was the (an) expert witness and appeared for the litigation of Tosso Vs Burns in 1962in Long Beach, California. This action was brought about due to Mr.Toso, who was in a known diving area flying the red and white flag of diving being struck and seriously injured by a boat operated by Mr.Burns at Long Point (cove) Catalina Island. The jury ruled in favor of Mr Toso and he was awarded $138,000.00 in damages-a large sum in 1962.

    Approximately 10 years ago I was retained as a consultant/expert witness for another case in New England regarding the "ownership" of the red and white flag. An attorney had aquired the jewelry remains of a defunct comany called Sea Craft Industries of Wilmington who had sold all but the jewelry department to New England Divers of Beverly Mass. A major item in the line was the varrious uses of the dive flag, belt buckles, cuff links, tie tacs, ear rings, necklaces, and even lighters.

    It was the the Attorney's position that by aquiring the jewelry portion of Sea Craft which featured the Dive Flag he had priority of ownership, therefore all companies, organizations, boats etc who in any way displayed the flag owed him a royality. This case, if adjucated in favor of the attorney would have given him absolute ownership of the dive flag and any and all who displayed it would owe a royality to him, ever so small or ever so large.

    I consulted and reproduced all my files which were letters and copies of Skin Diver Magazine (SDM) which were submitted as proof of prior establishment and useage by the diving public which were submitted to the judge for his ruling. The case was dismissed, and the use of the dive flag as public domaine was established for all to use through out the world.

    My dive flag files represent over 50 years of research and are approximately 4-5 inches high. Until a very few years ago I had never heard the name of "Doc Dockery" associated in any way shape or form with "devising the dive flag." Perhaps he did- but all records and all recent dive historians credit Ted Nixon of Michigan as the father of the red and white dive flag. sadly so far as can be established Ted is now diving in the big reef in the sky and cannot defend his place in dive flag history.

    Kraken (you old bird) we have known each other for a number of years...perhaps you can shed additional light on Doc Dockerys claim to the flag-As previouly stated I have absoluely no information on him-Please do it quick and furnish references and documents for I am going to press with my book very shortly and if indeed he devised the dive flag he should be given approprite credit.


    So yes you can use the dive flag--FYI it should be, but seldom is 5 units wide, 4 units high with a 1 unit stripe ---AND the original color was international orange and white rather than red and white.

    Since you reside in Long Beach you may want to drop by Tom Murray's shop on the Belmont peir..

    SDM
     
  5. Rick Murchison

    Rick Murchison Trusty Shellback Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Gulf of Mexico
    13,348
    553
    113
    Ted's in there too. I can't remember who did what exactly, but Doc was in Michigan and worked with Ted on the project. I have the "story" somewhere & will see if I can dig it up for you.
    Rick
     
  6. Rick Murchison

    Rick Murchison Trusty Shellback Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Gulf of Mexico
    13,348
    553
    113
    Here ye go...
    (Here's the content of the article)
    HISTORY OF OUR DIVE FLAG


    [​IMG] Discharged from the U.S. Navy on August 16, 1949 Denzel James Dockery began his newly acquired trade of Diving with a home built "SCUBA" rig manufactured from a plan published in an issue of the "Popular Mechanics" magazine. After serving a period of apprentice with his new equipment and now newly wed to Ruth Evelyn Carlson, it became painfully apparent that the "Baker" flag he had used in the Navy was not recognized by civilian marine operators. The "Baker" flag is a solid red DANGER flag displayed by Navy personal when there were divers at work nearby. "Doc", as he was nick named, was using the flag as he had in the Navy, but no one was honoring its presents. Together he and Ruth fabricated a "Red" flag with a white stripe running across its middle. This flag showed the same pattern when viewed from either side. The Dockerys soon discovered that their flag was a copy of a National Flag used by Austria. After much research the White Stripe was quickly moved to Run from the upper left corner to the lower right corner. The flag was a little more difficult for Ruth to sew but was a true original "DIVER DOWN FLAG". It did not represent any country or organization that they could find. The "Divers Flag" was born. The fact that it reversed its self when viewed from the back was a necessary but acceptable trade off. Doc used the flag in his work and promoted it through the "Cuadro Pescadores" Diving Club that they belonged to. During the early 1950's the Dockery's opened a "garage" Dive Shop in Flint, MI and sold the flag to local Divers. A sales representative for U.S. Divers named Ted Nixon saw their flag and offered to sell it Nationally while calling on his regular customers. With Ted's contacts the flag really sold. Ruth spent most of her spare time sewing flags by the hundreds. Meanwhile, Doc and the club members worked to get the flag recognized by the Michigan State Legislature as a means of protecting SCUBA Divers from marine traffic. Also, the newly formed Great Lakes Diving Council began promoting The FLAG to the Legislators of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Each of the Legislations in turn passed laws forcing penalties to be levied against Divers who did not use The FLAG but gave the Diver no legal protection against boaters while using it. Their efforts had "BACKFIRED". By this time many other companies were making The Flag and Doc & Ruth decided it was time to drop out of the picture and direct their attention to their growing Diving business. The Diving industry has rewarded them with a comfortable life style and a small place in the HISTORY OF DIVING.
    ---------
    Rick​
     
    divad likes this.
  7. mike_s

    mike_s Solo Diver

    20,027
    3,343
    0
    If my memory is correct, according to the "reading material" on the back of the bathroom door at Vortex Springs, they owner or person who started Vortex I believe claims to be the person who "created/invented" the "dive flag" (red w/ white stripe).

    Now I'm not disputing Sam Miller (above) years of research and legalize, but just throwing this 'bone' in for discussion... I can't remember his name. It might have been Dockery.

    Anyone?
     
  8. H2Andy

    H2Andy Blue Whale

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: NE Florida
    29,646
    376
    0
    one of the great injustices (i use the world lightly) in diving. Doc indeed came up with the flag, but because Nixon took the lead in marketing (ah, there's that word) the flag, he got credit as the creator.

    i am glad that more and more people are re-discovering old Doc's place in dive history
     
  9. Sam Miller III

    Sam Miller III Scuba Legend Scuba Legend

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: CALIFORNIA: Where recreational diving began!
    4,898
    3,588
    113
    By gum a response or two.... And I apprecate them, thank you very much!

    Perhaps it would be well if the recent history of recreational self contained diving in the US was grossly reviewed;

    1947-8 --Hans Hass Movie "Under the Red Sea" appeared on the American market.---Homemade Rebreathers became popular..Diving was called "swimdiving."

    1948 First of Menfish published by James Dougan, Divers were called Cousteau Divers- used unknow objects called "Aqua lungs."

    1949 Arnie Post imports Aqua lungs.

    1951 Skin Diver Magazine, (SDM) world's first recreational diving magazine published in Lynwood California.

    1951 Rene Bussoz establishes US Divers, Divers were called Aqua Lung Divers or Lung Divers

    I953 article on construction of an Aqua lung published in US

    1954 article on home made Hookha published in US

    1955 article on Home made Scuba published in UK.

    1957 "Dive flag" aka "Divers Down Flag" introduced by Ted Nixon, a professional plumber, much correspondence, articles in SDM, controversay and discussions about size, shape color and useage

    1958 "Red and white Dive flag" accepted; first useage on a dive club patch.

    There are historians of all sorts--some some who lived it, others who have read about it and still others who have heard about it.

    And then there are the historians who can recall items that never were, events that never took place and people they never knew..And of course the huge majority of, I heard, I believe, I think, I suspose...

    I do not know where Mr. Dockery should be placed, that is for him the individual to decide. I for one have never met him in person or via correspondence; he was not present nor did he step forward when the acceptance of the dive flag was on trial in Long Beach, nor was he mentioned in the trial when the useage of the Dive flag was almost stolen from the diving public.

    It is indeed sad...Ted did, so until it is proven conclusively to the contray Ted Nixon IS the Father of the Dive Flag, and will be given full credit due for it's Design, Development, and Acceptance in the US and the world.

    I eagerly await your learned responsed, from memory or from the obscure door of a bathroom door(?) of a dive shop

    SDM

    A side bar--Interesting that recreational diving is the only sport known to man that has it's own flag recognized through out the world? sdm
     
  10. The Kraken

    The Kraken He Who Glows in the Dark Waters (ADVISOR) ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Roswell/Alpharetta, GA
    11,156
    86
    48
    Sam,

    If you ever have the opportunity, I encourage you to visit with Doc. He is a most delightful fellow . . . and more than willing to share his memories.

    the K
     

Share This Page