SDI vs PADI standards

[The Chairman]

Hey Mario,

I have been scared before, myself, but never had THAT reaction. Thnk goodness that most of our river diving is in the 15' to 20' range. BTW, Florida has more fossils than anywhere else. It's a fun thing to do, especially the ancient reefs just south of Tampa. You never know what you will find.

Pete from Orlando...

 

[vr]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Hey All,
However, to say that an agency is responsible only for bad figures and not for good ones, does a dis-service to any plausible paradigms. Pergamentum inuit, exit pergamentum... (garbage in, garbage out). Again, I would like to view accidents by agency, with the various factors weighed in. I could then draw my own conclusions.

It's not really a disservice at all. It's a bit like when blood types were used for paternity tests. Certain blood types could rule out paternity, while others could not establish it and only allowed for the possibility of paternity.

You should read that article. You'd understand that there is a lot more to determining the quality of education by agency than the accident rate. How confident and well prepared they are is one of them, how prepared they are for varying conditions is another. Their buoyancy skills, or lack of them, are other indicators.

I know in our dive club we see a lot of newly certified divers and many don't feel they learned enough. It shows when they are in the water. The diligence of our divemasters and experienced members, combined with their own attitude and aptitude, help make them into much better divers. You can't rightfully credit their agency certification for their and our work.

The kind of figures you mention don't exist, and would still be meaningless if they did. In fact, just about all of the figures about sport divers are guesswork and you can find a big difference in the guesses from one group to another.

Good judgment says that a better trained diver is a better prepared diver. My judgment tells me that ignorance and a bare minimum approach are not appropriate in a life support situation.

 

[The Chairman]

Hey VI & All,

No data on accidents??? I am sure DAN has them, and is working on getting a handle on them. Do they ask what the certifying agency is? Has anyone seen a DAN accident report?Do we have access to them? I am not sure, if any of us have even tried? Whenever I hear people qualify results that they don't know, or won't share, it indicates to me that there is possibly more than meets the eye. That there is something being hid. Are we going to have a "The data does not support my thesis, so throw the data out" mentality? Or would it be prudent to let as many minds as possible mull over their reality.

BTW, I read that article back when this thread first began... interesting reading, but I do not agree with all of the conlclusions. There are voluminous factors that affect any and every situation... diving is no different! For any patterns to emerge, we must associate as much of the data as possible. If some of these associations are erroneous, that too will be made clear over time. Just as in diving, give he high vis... hide nothing from me I might think is valuable.

Finally, to withhold data because we might "mis-interpret" it, is an affront to me and every other diver. Do not be concerned HOW I might interpret the data, just let me have the data. Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark.

Pete from Orlando...

 

[scubazen]

Hey Jon,
I read that you are going to do your IDC. Why?
Phil

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by scubazen
Hey Jon,
I read that you are going to do your IDC. Why?
Phil

Why?? Because I am fed up with the generally poor quality of instructors I come across.

No - I won't be teaching for money after. If People want to buy me beer in exchange for teaching them, and are prepared for a course that is much longer than necessary for PADI standards then I will teach them, if not well - they can learn elsewhere. I already have a long list of diving friends who want to do advanced, rescue etc... with me, and a couple that would be quite happy to DM with me.

Also - If I want to eventually start a TIR (Teach it Right!!) agency, then I at least ought to have some internationally recognised diving instructor qualification, as well as experience etc.. (I am also doing the FFESSM 2* instructor course at the moment)

Jon T

 

[Bob]

Jon T,
I'm in agreement with you on this one! Certification has become too easy and the quality of the divers being certified confirms it! Anyone been out on a dive boat lately? I was paired with a cocky young guy who wanted to argue about the necessity of making a safety stop after a 60' dive.I finally told him that he could do as he liked, but I was making my safety stop. Makes one wonder how he ever got his card.
My idea of DIR is not so much how we gear up or the type gear that we wear. Producing a skilled and competent diver begins with teaching him or her the basics well and making sure the student diver understands what they've been taught and can confidantly demonstrate and articulate what they've been taught. We need more people Teaching It Right instead of offering easy two day certification classes.
:tree:Bob

 

[scubazen]

Follow up to PADI versus SDI

Hi Guys,
I recently started to write on this board. It is new for me and I am quite impressed with the number of people getting connected. Sorry for my English: my mother tongue is French. I have been teaching diving for eleven years in different country’s and different languages. It’s been a lot of fun and I still enjoy doing a Discover Scuba. Today, I am a PADI Course Director. This is my highest rating. I also became a CMAS ** instructor in France 4 years ago. I enjoy cave diving, so I decided to do the Full Cave Diver certification course. Today, I live and teach in Florida.
The point I would like to emphasize today is about the quality of training. There are to many people out there that think that most of the instructor trains crappy divers and they will do a better job than the others. Teaching diving is a great activity that is not for everyone. Too many people think they will enjoy it and have an easy life. It is very hard. You don’t have always the perfect student you are looking for. Sometimes in one class, you will have at least three different progression levels. The great point about the PADI system is that it is performance based. Students have objectives, they have to reach them and that’s it! We also emphasize on repetition. This is why we use assistant. The Open water course is very well designed. It includes everything a diver need at this level. After the class, it is up to the diver to continue training and practice to become a better diver. Most of the instructors are doing a good job. They have a hard life for not much money. With an average of $1200 a month, you don’t do much. Why they still do it? Because they love it! I still love to see a student been able to clear a mask after few unsuccessful attempts.
The problem here is the attitude of the diver. Some of them think they are very good even if they are not. I also dive for pleasure. As you said, some divers on the boat are not very good. Is it a reason for them not to dive? I don’t think so. If there is receptivity, I will help the diver with few tips. Discussion can be very constructive. It has to be done on a non-aggressive way. I have seen to many professionals shouting at divers because they had made a mistake. It won’t help. As a professional, you can do the best to assure that your students will be good and safe divers. Once they are gone, it is up to them. If they want to drop to 240ft, what can you do? You will not be there when it will happen. Accidents happen all around the world. Not only with beginners. Few days ago, we lost two divers in Florida caves. The first one had no cave training and the second one was a very respected cave instructor! I have a huge file of similar stories. Myself, I have also done stupid things underwater. I was lucky. The more training you have, the better it is. It is not only taking course after course. It is in every dive, being properly prepared, trying to identify what can go wrong and prevent the situation. Some one made reference to flying. It is the same. If you don’t practice, you become roasted. I got my private pilot license two months ago. I still have a long way to go to feel I am a good pilot.
People criticize PADI because they are the most exposed. We don’t ear very often about poor SSI or FFESSM training (I have a bunch of stories also about those two). Everybody knows PADI. They have the best instructional system in the world. Believe it or not, some instructor from other agencies use PADI product for their classes. Why? Because they are good. I think SDI allow SDI instructor to use PADI material for their classes.
Recently PADI launched the TECREC program. PADI members have asked for this kind of product because their client where looking for it. They where going to go deep, even if no course existed. By offering proper training, we will decrease accident.
Just a reminder; when PADI introduced the modular Scuba course in 1986, diving fatalities dropped significantly. Why not the same today with TecRec?
The PADI system is very strict for the instructor. He has to follow strict standards. New agency like SDI attract instructor because the workload is reduced. I am the kind of instructor that believes that the student must repeat exercises in open water. It is a verification of performance and a good things for his self-confidence. Mask removal amd replacement at 6 feet in the pool is not the sam than at 60 feet in OW.
PADI is also criticized as a business! What’s wrong with that! I don’t have another job and if I want to eat, I have to teach! Some instructor teaches for free in Diving club. It is a different subject. They have a day job! It does not mean that their students are better trained!
The beauty about diving today, is that almost everybody can do it. Training is very important; but at the end of the day, what’s most important? The diver. It is his responsibility to make the right choice about his diving experience. If he is listening, we can help. If not, maybe you will remember when you parent told you something and you did the opposite. If we could trained the attitude of certain divers and certain instructors, perhaps there will be less friction on a dive boat.

Tomorrow, I am going wreck diving in Fort Lauderdale.


Philippe

 

[The Chairman]

Well said mon ami, well said. What you lacked in english, you more than made up for with a passion for the sport and your trade that few can argue with. I am with you %100!!!

 

[gjenks]

I am certified with SSI and am pleased with the insructors and the training. But am wondering why I see no mention in these procedings about SSI? When I certified I made a lot of mistakes and they were addressed with acknoledgment of the fact that the responsability of my life is myself. If someone knows of a shortcoming with the training I can make the proper adjustments. I love diving, and really appreciate the response's I recieve from this board.

 

[Dennismc]

Hello all,

First post here, (on the board in general as well)

I am very new to diving, just completed the course work for SDI, and have first pool dive this weekend. Until talking to my instructor, I always thought PADI was it, and the only one. My brother in law is taking his classes through PADI, not sure of the course work there. I can say that even though SDI teaches computer more then tables, I know for me, that wasnt an issue, as my instructor, stated they were allowed to teach other areas as well being SDI, and since I wanted to know more about tables he spent a couple hours with me, just going over them.

Being a person that understand the whole computer field, I also know they fail, anything mechanical or electronic can and will fail, and maybe its my old school thought process, I want to know what to do in that case, so I asked.

Now in reading all of this thread, I agree that more training is the right way to go, and that doenst mean only classroom, or initial cert. It means always be ready and willing to learn more. You also dont know your limits, you learn first what they are, then learn to extend them. You can have all the training in the world, but personal responsibility has to be mentioned as well. I think for what the training is for rec ow diving, it is there for one thing get your feet wet. Everyone should know that it is not the end of training, and if you want to do more, you have to learn more and limit yourself to your training.

I know for me, its my life and possibly my dive buddies if I screw up, or extend what I "think" I know or can do, and sorry but not willing to risk either. It is a business afterall, so yes the into training will be geared towards the Greatest reach, which benefits the whole industry, as long as the instructor is teaching that is it just that, a training stop on the way to more advanced, and the student understands the same thing, it should work.

Another example, even though my brother and I will be both certified my end of next month, there is not one signal dive we are planing, where its just the two of us. Already making sure to dive with a more experienced dive buddy, to make sure, if a problem arises there is someone better then we are there.