Seeking the DIR Answer: Must DIR Shops be Committed?

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rjack321:
Bob why do you continue to post here? You have said several times that you are not DIR and don't wanna be.
Because I can ... :wink:

rjack321:
You "planned" a deco dive which was definately not DIR and then complained that a GUE trained diver got confused and screwed up. Could it be that maybe the plan was wacked to begin with? It takes at least 2 to get seperated. You stayed behind to fulfill your computer deco obligation just as much as the other diver "left you".
Go back and read my comments again ... in the context of TRH's post to which I responded. It had nothing to do with computers ... or deco. And it certainly wasn't a complaint.

The context was about awareness. Any time a diver leaves his buddy behind ... whatever the reason ... there's an awareness issue. The reasons for that issue are rather irrelevent to the fact that one buddy swam away while the other had an obligation to remain.

As others have indicated ... it was a team failure.

Now think about my point again, which is this ... awareness isn't something you learn in a class. It's something you develop through practice. GUE training isn't a panacea to perfect diving. It's a set of tools by which a diver can ... with proper application ... develop a set of skills.

Arguing that point is about as senseless as two teenage car jocks arguing about who makes the best set of socket wrenches ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
RiverRat:
Let him post. He was with a GUE diver so maybe it's good discussion. In spite of the mudslinging I for one think this thread as been productive. There are DIR divers here, OW divers and OW divers on the DIR/GUE path. Let's not forget all DIR divers started out as OW divers. Let the forum stay "open" to different viewpoints while at the same time promoting DIR in a professional manner. This, BTW, is coming from an OW diver on the GUE-F path.
Thank you ... I'm not trying to sling mud. I'm trying to point out that a lot of people get so focused on the trees that they don't notice the forest in the background. GUE training ... like anyone else's training ... is nothing more than a means to an end. It shouldn't be presented as a given that someone who takes it will automatically acquire the skills presented in the class. What you'll really get ... especially in Fundamentals ... is a framework around which you can, with effort, begin to acquire those skills. The actual acquisition takes time ... and people will make mistakes in the process.

You are right ... there are a lot of people who are thinking about GUE training who read these threads. I'm interested in them getting a realistic set of expectations. I know that, based on nothing but glowing reports, I was pretty disappointed with my first GUE class. Once I set my expectations more realistically, I ended up being pretty happy with it.

"Good-News-Only" reporting doesn't really help anyone ... least of all, people who are shopping around for alternatives.

And FWIW - I wasn't just "with" a GUE diver. I happen to have taken a couple of GUE classes with the person I was diving with. I was using myself as much as an example of my point as I was the other guy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
Arguing that point is about as senseless as two teenage car jocks arguing about who makes the best set of socket wrenches ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

C'MON! We all know it's SNAP-ON tools.
 
do it easy:
Craftsman! :banana:

Dandy Don, is that you?
 
Bob and I were actually talking about this topic last night after our dive. Really, the point is that people are only human, and no matter how well trained they are, they're occasionally going to make mistakes. The mistakes will be less frequent, hopefully less severe (although there's NO guarantee of that), and the person involved should have better tools to salvage the situation, but no amount of training and practice will ever change the fact that a human being is a complex system vulnerable to error.

I'm a diver who's passed Fundies and has been told she's at the tech pass level now. I've taken (but not passed) Rec Triox. But if anybody thinks that training created an uber-diver, they need only talk to my dive buddies (or me!) to learn differently. I still make mistakes (thus the "taken but not passed" comment). Basic mistakes I hope are now pretty rare, but not unknown. And I posted a while back about a training dive where a Tech 1 student and my training buddy got so involved in an air-share drill they weren't supposed to be doing, that they missed me kicking off my dry suit boots and going feet first to the surface. Nobody, not anywhere and not any time, is perfect.

And this gets back to the original question of this thread, from which we have strayed far afield. Ideals are just that, but people live in a messy real world and often have to reconcile what they'd like to do (or be able to do) with what they can actually pull off. We're all trying to get by, above and under the water, the best we can.
 
I'm sure some of you have the DIR 2004 DVD's. If you watch the 18 minutes of the Wakulla dive, you'll see even the best of the best making mistakes.

During the open circuit portions you will see a lot of poor trim and propulsion issues. These issues are more highly excusable when trying to manipulate the amount of scooters and stage bottles during the later rebreather footage due to the massive equipment load, but with basic equipment, the WKPP divers certainly can do better. Or, have the demands placed on divers begun to move away from "acceptable" to "must be perfect" on today's entry level technical diver going through DIR training? The trim and propulsion issues are not destroying visibility, nor are they compromising team integrity. Are they a problem? No. But, how many of you would not be allowed to "pass" a course if displaying the same skills? One of my students took my Tek Prep course and then took JJ's DIR-F days later and told me that the skills I demonstrated were better than JJ's. That surprised me. But, then I never took a course with JJ. I learned from Andrew, who as we know, is amazing. So, if I looked better than JJ to one student whose occupation deals with studying athletes, and if I can't pass Bob's DIR-F after taking Andrew's Tech 1, what level are our skills being challenged to meet as DIR students before we actually can go diving? Have I seen JJ dive. Yes, several times, and he always had his scooter and looked great. The point of this is that when you are assessing your own mistakes place them in context of where they occur in a dive and how critical the mistake is and not just always against the template of perfection.

Returning to the 2004 DVD's, you'll see George make a significant impact with the ceiling at the end of an old tunnel approaching the 14,000 foot mark. This impact is made while scootering with the brunt of the hit being taken by the cylinder mounted to the right side of the rebreather and the manifold of that bottle going into the rebreather. The impact visibly swings the unit and large pieces of cave rain down and continue to rain on Jarrod as he follows continuing to film. George doesn't pause to check the status of the knob on that cylinder nor examine the manifold and Jarrod doesn't get his attention to insist that they check for damage. Such a mistake can be critical. I have impacted ceilings in caves and wrecks and grew sloppy about checking every time. Last month, I managed to strip my left knob off my manifold in a U-boat. I didn't check the knob because the impact with the celing was relatively gentle. Upon surfacing, an R/V Garloo crew member asked, "Where's your handwheel?" as I climbed the ladder. I hadn't known it was missing throughout decompression and no one pointed it out to me underwater. George's failure to check his knob and my failure to check my knob could have turned into critical situations.

Less critical, but quite unfortunate, cave damage is done by stage bottles impacting the ceiling in two other places. The most obvious at the 16,000 foot mark where the cave is syphoning. You can see the ceiling raining down and the white color of freshly exposed limestone.

Not critical at all, not really mistakes either, but you'll see rubber fin straps rather than springs on the fins, Jarrod wearing gloves which is not recommended for cave diving (but, he is going in for several hours) and decompressing on the knees. As DIR divers it becomes important to ask yourself why you, others in your group and divers that you see are doing things.

As a cave instructor, I'd look at these issues as:

Fins = springs would be ideal, but the heel straps are either cut or folded under removing possible entanglement points (acceptable).

Gloves = possibly diver needs them for comfort during long exposures? Comfort is more critical than reduced dexterity and the ability to feel the line if a lights out or silt out situation occurs.

Decompressing on knees = divers are tired from lengthy exposure. Deco on knees helps them rest and maintain proper depth while possibly experiencing fatigue.

Again, the point of this post is to call to attention ways of assessing your own mistakes, and those of others, by placing them in context of where they occur in a dive and how critical the mistake is, as well as to say that even the best of the best error. Keep that in mind as you quest for perfection.


TSandM:
Bob and I were actually talking about this topic last night after our dive. Really, the point is that people are only human, and no matter how well trained they are, they're occasionally going to make mistakes. The mistakes will be less frequent, hopefully less severe (although there's NO guarantee of that), and the person involved should have better tools to salvage the situation, but no amount of training and practice will ever change the fact that a human being is a complex system vulnerable to error...

...And this gets back to the original question of this thread, from which we have strayed far afield. Ideals are just that, but people live in a messy real world and often have to reconcile what they'd like to do (or be able to do) with what they can actually pull off. We're all trying to get by, above and under the water, the best we can.
 
TraceMalin:
I'm sure some of you have the DIR 2004 DVD's. If you watch the 18 minutes of the Wakulla dive, you'll see even the best of the best making mistakes.

During the open circuit portions you will see a lot of poor trim and propulsion issues. These issues are more highly excusable when trying to manipulate the amount of scooters and stage bottles during the later rebreather footage due to the massive equipment load, but with basic equipment, the WKPP divers certainly can do better. Or, have the demands placed on divers begun to move away from "acceptable" to "must be perfect" on today's entry level technical diver going through DIR training? The trim and propulsion issues are not destroying visibility, nor are they compromising team integrity. Are they a problem? No. But, how many of you would not be allowed to "pass" a course if displaying the same skills? One of my students took my Tek Prep course and then took JJ's DIR-F days later and told me that the skills I demonstrated were better than JJ's. That surprised me. But, then I never took a course with JJ. I learned from Andrew, who as we know, is amazing. So, if I looked better than JJ to one student whose occupation deals with studying athletes, and if I can't pass Bob's DIR-F after taking Andrew's Tech 1, what level are our skills being challenged to meet as DIR students before we actually can go diving? Have I seen JJ dive. Yes, several times, and he always had his scooter and looked great. The point of this is that when you are assessing your own mistakes place them in context of where they occur in a dive and how critical the mistake is and not just always against the template of perfection.

Returning to the 2004 DVD's, you'll see George make a significant impact with the ceiling at the end of an old tunnel approaching the 14,000 foot mark. This impact is made while scootering with the brunt of the hit being taken by the cylinder mounted to the right side of the rebreather and the manifold of that bottle going into the rebreather. The impact visibly swings the unit and large pieces of cave rain down and continue to rain on Jarrod as he follows continuing to film. George doesn't pause to check the status of the knob on that cylinder nor examine the manifold and Jarrod doesn't get his attention to insist that they check for damage. Such a mistake can be critical. I have impacted ceilings in caves and wrecks and grew sloppy about checking every time. Last month, I managed to strip my left knob off my manifold in a U-boat. I didn't check the knob because the impact with the celing was relatively gentle. Upon surfacing, an R/V Garloo crew member asked, "Where's your handwheel?" as I climbed the ladder. I hadn't known it was missing throughout decompression and no one pointed it out to me underwater. George's failure to check his knob and my failure to check my knob could have turned into critical situations.

Less critical, but quite unfortunate, cave damage is done by stage bottles impacting the ceiling in two other places. The most obvious at the 16,000 foot mark where the cave is syphoning. You can see the ceiling raining down and the white color of freshly exposed limestone.

Not critical at all, not really mistakes either, but you'll see rubber fin straps rather than springs on the fins, Jarrod wearing gloves which is not recommended for cave diving (but, he is going in for several hours) and decompressing on the knees. As DIR divers it becomes important to ask yourself why you, others in your group and divers that you see are doing things.

As a cave instructor, I'd look at these issues as:

Fins = springs would be ideal, but the heel straps are either cut or folded under removing possible entanglement points (acceptable).

Gloves = possibly diver needs them for comfort during long exposures? Comfort is more critical than reduced dexterity and the ability to feel the line if a lights out or silt out situation occurs.

Decompressing on knees = divers are tired from lengthy exposure. Deco on knees helps them rest and maintain proper depth while possibly experiencing fatigue.

Again, the point of this post is to call to attention ways of assessing your own mistakes, and those of others, by placing them in context of where they occur in a dive and how critical the mistake is, as well as to say that even the best of the best error. Keep that in mind as you quest for perfection.

Nicely said Trace,

DIR is about a uniform team concept and safety. Some divers get the wrong idea, and believe that it's all about looking good, all the time, no matter what. Perfect trim... must have perfect trim.... always perfect trim...

Sorry guys, sometimes gear, current, access, temperature, environmental conditions, fatigue etc... all affect the way we dive. does that mean that we all suck? No, of course not.

Think of it this way, In a NASCAR race, all the cars start out bright and shiny and looking really good (ie. perfect trim), then when the conditions change, they're not afraid to trade paint, bump draft etc... (ie. deco on knees etc..)

It's all about what works for the given conditions. If you keep improving your diving, and taking care to do the best that you can as conditions permit, it won't matter if you're PADI, NAUI, GUE, DIR or NAACP.

Cheers :D
 
Mike Edmonston:
Nicely said Trace,

DIR is about a uniform team concept and safety. Some divers get the wrong idea, and believe that it's all about looking good, all the time, no matter what. Perfect trim... must have perfect trim.... always perfect trim...

Sorry guys, sometimes gear, current, access, temperature, environmental conditions, fatigue etc... all affect the way we dive. does that mean that we all suck? No, of course not.

Funny, JJ said exactly the same thing in Fundies class. Don't get hung up on the perfect trim and so forth. He actually showed slides of ceiling impacts, them decompressing on their knees, etc. Just to prove this point.
 
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