Series regulators & flow rate suitability of "standard" BC QCs for surface breathing?

[-JD-]

Background:

I'm looking to put together a kit that will allow me to provide elevated to high fO2 breathing support from EANx to O2, using various gas sources.

My goals are flexibility of source (connection), compactness, and cost efficiency.

Disclaimer/Frame: While I do have EANx and O2 Provider certs, I am not a medical professional, dive professional, or official first responder and do not require a kit that has to meet specific professional standards.

My immediately available option is a 120 of hot EANx and one of my reg sets - better than nothing in a pinch, but not ideal.

I'll likely be ordering a CGA-870 medical oxygen regulator and mask soon, and I'm on the lookout for good, local, used medical oxygen cylinders. If I happend upon a killler deal on a big DAN kit that would be awesome, and highly unlikely.

In any case, I'd like to be able to drive the the CGA-870 reg off of one of my scuba regs for access to my scuba gas when required. [I know that DIN-CGA870 adapters are available through DGX and NESS, but most of my cylinders are 3500psi nominal (and sometimes filled enthusiastically) with 300BAR valves, nixing DGX's adapter, and the medical regs seem to top out at 3000 psi supply anyway.]

My thought was to connect an LP outlet from my scuba 1st stage to the medical reg using a BC connection and a CGA-870 to NPT block.

Note: I am aware of the RescueEAN Pod but I plan to already have a medical reg and hope to just adapt it without the additional bulk of that kit.

The questions:

1 - Will the medical reg be able to function properly with a typical scuba reg IP as a source pressure?

2 - Will a standard BCD quick connect Shraeder flow enough gas at IP pressure to support a medical demand-breather mask if (I get that far) and/or say a 20 lpm continuous flow supply?

 

[tbone1004]

@-JD- why bother with a CGA regulator in the first place though? The only reason I can possibly fathom to use one over a RescuEAN is if you need to use a MTV-100. That is the reason I also carry a medical O2 bottle, but it doesn't come out unless I need the MTV-100. The RescuEAN is the size of a beer can and since it's waterproof and essentially indestructible, you don't need to keep it in a case like you would with a medical regulator

The questions
1-no-if you want to use a medical regulator, you need to hook it directly to the tank. If only need continuous flow, you can buy a dwyer flow meter and put a BC nipple on it like we have for some O2 analyzers.
2-yes

 

[CuriousRambler]

I'm in a similar situation. I'm a big fan of the MTV100 idea, but also want the benefit of more capacity from scuba cylinders. The rescuean fills a good niche IMO, but I don't love the limited constant flow options, and the need for a BVM and a trained buddy to operate it. My current assessment is that there are notable drawbacks to each option (medical o2 kit vs Rescuean) so it's either "choose your sacrifice" or opt for both. One distinct advantage to the rescuean is its size and portability, you're more likely to have it around when you need it. A big heavy o2 kit in a bulky pelican case is easy to leave behind, especially if you squeeze a couple extra people on the boat.

 

[tbone1004]

I'm in a similar situation. I'm a big fan of the MTV100 idea, but also want the benefit of more capacity from scuba cylinders. The rescuean fills a good niche IMO, but I don't love the limited constant flow options, and the need for a BVM and a trained buddy to operate it. My current assessment is that there are notable drawbacks to each option (medical o2 kit vs Rescuean) so it's either "choose your sacrifice" or opt for both. One distinct advantage to the rescuean is its size and portability, you're more likely to have it around when you need it. A big heavy o2 kit in a bulky pelican case is easy to leave behind, especially if you squeeze a couple extra people on the boat.

you have to balance the risks.
The MTV-100 is an incredible tool, but it's big and heavy if the patient is breathing which requires actively holding it while breathing, and limits you to medical bottles with DISS ports. If you suspect that you have a real risk of dealing with a non-breathing patient, then it's worth looking at, but the reality is that risk is pretty small.
The RescuEAN is not the most efficient in terms of using O2 due to the limited constant flow options, but since you are on a big bottle, I find it's a far better solution than dealing with medical bottles. I throw it in my gear bin and just leave it there. In terms of the BVM, yeah they're annoying, but it is possible to ventilate with a BVM solo, just have to practice. It's annoying, but possible.

When I go on a boat, I throw the RescuEAN in my boat bag, then I throw a nonrebreather mask and a collapsible BVM in a mask box to keep it somewhat protected

 

[CuriousRambler]

you have to balance the risks.
The MTV-100 is an incredible tool, but it's big and heavy if the patient is breathing which requires actively holding it while breathing, and limits you to medical bottles with DISS ports. If you suspect that you have a real risk of dealing with a non-breathing patient, then it's worth looking at, but the reality is that risk is pretty small.
The RescuEAN is not the most efficient in terms of using O2 due to the limited constant flow options, but since you are on a big bottle, I find it's a far better solution than dealing with medical bottles. I throw it in my gear bin and just leave it there. In terms of the BVM, yeah they're annoying, but it is possible to ventilate with a BVM solo, just have to practice. It's annoying, but possible.

When I go on a boat, I throw the RescuEAN in my boat bag, then I throw a nonrebreather mask and a collapsible BVM in a mask box to keep it somewhat protected

You pretty much summed up exactly what I've been able to surmise about the differences haha. Thanks for that, it's reassuring to get feedback from somebody with experience that supports the thoughts I've cobbled together.

I haven't dug very deep into the issue yet. My most likely approach is an Al40 set up with a dedicated o2 regulator that all stays dry, to get started. Rescuean is kind of a no brainer of a next step from a price and convenience perspective.

I don't see a rescuean being particularly useful for me today, because I currently only own one tank and have only just started diving nitrox. Time will tell if I'll actually dive EAN fills frequently enough to have any value in a rescuean. This is probably the biggest argument for a dedicated medical o2 setup for me.

If I add a couple more tanks to the collection and progress into deco diving, or can justify a dedicated tank for pure/high Fo2 fills, the drawbacks of the rescuean are minimal.

My main "expected" use is a coherent diver with a minor hit, who can use a regular 2nd stage just fine. That makes things easy. From there, it's a pretty big step to "person who requires resuscitation," so the cost alone of the MTV100 is hard to swallow.

Aside from a dummy, how do you practice using a BVM? I've taken quite a few medical courses, from a lot of sources, and my DAN course is the first time I've ever actually touched a BVM. I'm not dumb enough to believe I'm even reasonably competent in its use *with* a trained helper, much less alone haha. For some reason I doubt even my firefighter/EMT girlfriend will let me use her for practice haha

 

[tbone1004]

@CuriousRambler my official opinion as a CPR/First Aid/etc. instructor is to never practice with a bvm on each other. I also never recommend letting students try giving a couple of real chest compressions on me so they can see the difference in giving a compression on a dummy and on large guy who lifts weights.

The cost of the cheapest O2 kit with MTV100 is about $700 and you rarely see them used.
Al40-$200
Dedicated O2 regulator-$200-$400 depending
RescuEAN-$100 ish

So same price, but one gets you well over twice the volume, is easier to get fills, and is more useful in the long run for the majority of people.

For people that are coherent with a minor hit, just give them a normal scuba regulator. It's a LOT less annoying than trying to breathe with an MTV100 since the MTV100 requires you to hold it on your face with one hand.

 

[CuriousRambler]

@tbone1004 I appreciate the input, and agree completely with using a regular scuba reg where possible. An added perk to that for me is the not-famous idea of surface breathing post-dive prior to driving home through elevated passes.

At some point, I expect to pick your brain on your Invacare Homefill setup. Since you brought the idea to my attention, I've seen a few low-hour units for $1-200 in my area with the compressor and some tanks. That's almost a gimme, if there's any expectation of actually using o2. For strictly medical purposes where the bottle will sit full for potentially years before it ever sees use, pointless. But if there's any consumption, it seems like a cheap method.

 

[-JD-]

@tbone1004 Thanks for the info.

I was mulling over what you said and considering where I want to go with this. Then an "E" bottle (new unfilled, 10-17 born date) + Reg (CF 0-15lpm), popped up locally for $50 for both. Too good to pass up. It will get filled with SCUBA O2 tomorrow. It will hold me for now.
Saves having to dedicate a scuba cylinder to the purpose as @CuriousRambler indicated in his analysis.

 

[tbone1004]

@tbone1004 I appreciate the input, and agree completely with using a regular scuba reg where possible. An added perk to that for me is the not-famous idea of surface breathing post-dive prior to driving home through elevated passes.

At some point, I expect to pick your brain on your Invacare Homefill setup. Since you brought the idea to my attention, I've seen a few low-hour units for $1-200 in my area with the compressor and some tanks. That's almost a gimme, if there's any expectation of actually using o2. For strictly medical purposes where the bottle will sit full for potentially years before it ever sees use, pointless. But if there's any consumption, it seems like a cheap method.

If you're seeing full units with the pump for that cheap, I'd grab one. This is one of those areas that you are far more likely to actually use it if you have it and don't have to worry about it, vs. trying to conserve what you have because of the cost/hassle of getting them filled.

@-JD- at $50 for that, I'd probably jump on it too, cost is cheap enough not to worry about it, and if you're local shop can and will fill pin index, then it's an easy decision.

 

[CuriousRambler]

If you're seeing full units with the pump for that cheap, I'd grab one. This is one of those areas that you are far more likely to actually use it if you have it and don't have to worry about it, vs. trying to conserve what you have because of the cost/hassle of getting them filled.

Good point, and one I hadn't considered. As much as I'd like to believe logistics of refills wouldn't be a consideration in that decision, knowing fills are free and easy would almost certainly make it a situation of "ANY question? Just use it. No harm done, and it *might* make a positive difference," rather than "are we *sure* that pain is dive related? Ah, it's not that bad anyway..."