Should there be a Solo Diving discussion section on this forum?

[String]

Equally likely to think "ive dived this wreck plenty of times, i think i'll just go inside for a look"

 

[Scuba]

Could you describe this "whole new skill set" please?

It would be most useful if you could put it in the context of existing training standards.

All divers should be equiped able and prepared to complete any dive they do alone or even helping a buddy if needed. In this context another way to phrase my question is which skills would a solo diver be taught that isn't required for a diver to be a solid team member?

Mike, I'll attempt to address your point as I see it. An expert team diver will have the skills to solo. Since, at the core of every team, there are its individual component parts. So, a team diver must not only be self reliant but must be able to assisst his buddy as required, as you stated.

The difference is the mindset. Some, irrespective of skill level, simply do not have the constitution to willingly embark on a potentially dangerous enterprise all by themselves. They do not function and assess events calmly and correctly - constantly. Its really a mind block. Where some panic, others handle the same event cool and collected.

A solo diver must have the latter attributes. He can not rely on anyone for guidance and assisstance. He will not gather the confidence that humans often derive from the company of others. Awareness and calm, are the conditions and climate that promote clear and correct decisions. Of critical importance when you are the judge, jury, executioner - and recipient. Potential risk avoidance is of optimum importance. Again, these qualities are possessed by many team divers, as they too must weigh themselves, environmental conditions, and their buddy.

Solo, is to a great extent a journey of inner self discovery. Something that every diver should consider and ponder, since at the core of every team we are all individuals, and we all face the chance of a team part malfunction. And I think all, or most good divers - take it.

Discussing things such as these, in particular in regards to mindset, how events impact people differently, how we make different decisions simply based on whether we are alone or not. Ways to foresee, prepare, assess, and deal with issues and circumstances in general, including ourselves, is something that is not often seen in any other dive discussions - but is useful to all.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Could you describe this "whole new skill set" please?

It would be most useful if you could put it in the context of existing training standards.

All divers should be equiped able and prepared to complete any dive they do alone or even helping a buddy if needed. In this context another way to phrase my question is which skills would a solo diver be taught that isn't required for a diver to be a solid team member?

In contrast to a less than fully knowledgeable and experienced buddy, who can coast along on the rest of the team resources (until he loses track of them), solo divers need to master the complete set of skills including but not limited to site evaluation, self evaluation, self regulation, dive planning and air management, underwater navigation, redundant air supply selection and use and self rescue. At all times a solo diver needs to be fully aware of their situation as well as their abilities and limitations on that particular day and need sto self regulate to ensure their ability never approachs or exceeds the demands of the situation. Solo diving requires a specific attitude and philosophy as well as a skill set.

From your perspective, "new" skills set is perhaps a slight overstatement. We all would hope that all OW or at least AOW divers would be totally proficient with each of these skills. But if you are being totally honest Mike you'll need to acknowledge that the statement that "all divers should be equiped able and prepared to complete any dive they do alone or even helping a buddy if needed" is grossly optomistic in terms of the average OW and AOW diver.

In the real world a fair number of OW and AOW arrive on shore or on the boat and do a lemming imitation where they follow the DM around and rely on the DM or the buddy to make the calls on air management etc and follow the herd as the principle means of navigation. So if you want to talk saftey, let's use real world buddies as well as the idealized fully competent buddy model to compare the saftey of buddy diving to solo diving.

No diver comes out of the womb with an in-born set of scuba skills, even DIR divers. Even if a diver has every intention of being or becoming fully trained and competent, there is the period of time required to learn and apply these skills in the real world and during this time they are going to be lacking these skills while acting as a buddy. Well....they will be acting as someone's buddy assuming they can find a more experienced buddy who will dive with them despite their inevitable limitations in skills and experience.

If all divers were to insist on only diving with fully experienced and knowledgeable buddies, the current crop of experienced divers would eventually die off without imparting any knowledge to anyone less experienced and the dive industry would be defunct as soon as the last experienced buddy pair checked into the nursing home. This is the part of the philosophy of never diving with a less than fully competent buddy that some agencies push that I have never fully understood - it leaves no mechanisim for perpetuating the species other than violating one of the core principles of the philosophy.

I mention this as about half my dives are with new divers, relatively new divers or with semi-experienced divers who are incrementially building their skills and extending the range of situations in which they are comfortable diving. On these dives I plan it like I was going to be solo as I am not comfortable relying on a buddy who is going to be extending his own limits and focused on the dive rather than on any situation that may develop with me.

In the real world, learning continues to occur long after any particular certification is achieved and diving is very much a mentor/apprenticeship type of activity - as long as a new or less experienced diver can find a more experinced diver who can both teach in a supportive manner and who will park the "holier than thou" attitude and dive with them.

Solo diving involves an attitude and philosophy of self reliance that ensures that the diver will independently make his own go/no go decision on every dive and will be able to excercise the judgment needed to properly assess the conditions and self evaluate his or her skills to ensure they do not exceeed their abilities on a given dive. Solo diving philosophy also requires that the solo diver needs to be fully competent to perform any role on the "team" at anytime. In the end I think a self reliant solo diver will make a better buddy and with the right temperment will have the additional benefit of being better suited to dive with and mentor less experienced divers as their skills develop.

 

[Scuba]

I like to reiterate a few points and make a few closing comments. (unless discussion continues, contributions are always welcome) It is not my intention to steer anyone towards solo diving. My intention is to de-stigmatize it. To recognize it for the legitimate, expressive style of diving that it is, right along with all the other categories. All different styles of diving: rec, cave, wreck, ice, solo, deep, present attractions and rewards for some, along with their respective risks and peculiar dangers.

Many believe that buddy diving is an inseparable aspect of an optimized safe diving system, without exception. Fine, lets accept this premise for arguments sake.

Assume equally competent divers:

One dives solo, under good conditions, to a depth of 30 ft.

Two others, as a buddy team, penetrate far and deep into a challenging cave.

Who is taking the greater risk?

This is an extreme example meant to illustrate a point:

Buddy diving is not always safer than solo diving.

No one style of diving is always safer than another.

Furthermore, on two dives where the risks are equal, why do so many deem the risks in one acceptable - while in another type of dive - not?

There is no shortage of flaws to the concept that it is always better to dive with a buddy. This is an idealized myth, not a reflection of reality, or of actual team diving practice taking place in scuba today.

Many safe solo divers are forced to buddy up with unsafe divers due to the biased beliefs of operators, such as boat captains and charter operators. (However well intentioned they may be) Also, due to general legal liability considerations as interpreted by these operators. Granted, solo divers do not have to patronize these operators, so it is in fact voluntary. Yet, these practices increase the risk to those divers, including divers who generally prefer to buddy dive, who may choose to take the safer option as a particular situation may warrant and choose to dive solo. As opposed to possibly taking on a greater risk diving with inexperienced and incompetent divers. This is in direct contradiction to the stated purpose of increasing safety

Note how a solo class requiring 100 logged dives is criticized while many don't proffer the same blanket critique on the fact one can become an instructor with this many dives, or a tad more. Instructor of what? If 100 dives is not enough to take care of oneself, how is one going to take care of others?

I understand the concerns of those who believe the industry should tidy up their buddy diving act before it considers solo as a legitimate option. Problem is - logically inconsistent argument. Why are the various acceptable tec classifications ok? Shouldn’t they be held to the same standards? I have not seen anyone make the point where they oppose all types of higher risk diving practices, at least as relates to various currently acceptable types, such as the various tec categories.

Regardless how factual or universally true a point may appear from a certain perspective, we must consider other equally true perspectives in order to gain a comprehensive understanding of a subject. This allows us to derive sound conclusions that consistently apply. This still leaves room for a difference of opinion, difference of choice. It also reduces the temptation to dictate our biased chosen preferences to others.

When we consider the unknown quantity, but significant number of solo divers and dives being performed, from relatively fresh out of open water training with rudimentary skills to expert divers, the available evidence leads me to conclude that this type of diving can be managed in a way that can make it a relatively reliable safe practice. As is the case with other types of truly advanced diving. If there were a large number of dead solo divers popping up all over the place we would have heard about it. This is not the case. Some even go as far as to attribute accidents resulting from team failures to solo, invalidating the statistics. Sometimes we must overcome our preciously held beliefs and accept the evidence before us. Only then can we adapt and improve. Does anyone have statistical data for a fair, accurate comparison?

We can help facilitate the safety of those who will practice solo diving by creating training courses, discussion groups, etc.

Or we can obstruct all these measures in an attempt to discourage its practice and discourage others.

Both are noble goals indeed. As long as all higher risk type dives are opposed, otherwise, there is word for this: feigning to be and believe what one is not, is its meaning.

Since, frankly, I’m not intent on imposing my ideas on others, though I will express them and attempt to support them, and the arguments against a solo discussion section under the tec classifications have been somewhat less than stellar:

Here are some inescapable facts:

Granting acceptance encourages practice as well as the development of safer gear, techniques, courses, and so forth. Lives will be saved and lost. What is the likely net result? Many more will practice it with a higher average safety ratio than today, even though the actual number of lives lost may likely be greater than today ( It is possible and conceivable, that with time and effort and properly done, the actual total number of losses can be reduced even with a much larger population, within reason ) By the way, this is the accepted current model for all diving types today, with the exception of solo diving. ( there are some in the industry who support solo as a legitimate type of diving, but they are the exception rather than the norm )

Rejecting and obstructing discourages practice as well as safety development. Lives will be lost and saved. What is the likely net result? Many will be discouraged from its practice saving lives. While those who persist will often have to go it alone taking on greater risks and losing lives as the avenues to help are very limited. The actual number of lives lost may be less than if a much larger population participate, even when the benefits derived therewith are considered, but the ratio of loss will be higher. ( It is possible and conceivable, that if done wrong, the accident ratio could actually increase for the worse ) There have always been, and will probably always be, nay sayers to diving in general and to particular styles of diving. Today, only solo diving, is still treated this way by the dive community at large.

I believe a compelling case has been presented here to justify a Solo Diving thread subcategory of Tec. Diving. And perhaps more important, at least from my perspective, a compelling reason to deny it has not been made. From a diving enjoyment and safety perspective. This board has a diverse membership of divers from all over the world who share a passion for this sport of ours. Many wish to share ideas and most, if not all, wish to learn from others to increase their safety and enjoyment.

To those who decide, moderators and Net Doc - RSVP.

 

[Timmerdown]

I think that the experience of Solo diving should be available, and free for discussion. I appreciate the certification agencies positions on the topic-one of censorship, and understand why. But think that the experience should be one that we are free to pursue, and discuss. The choice is there to personally make, and should remain. We all start off inexperienced and to some degree unsafe, some more than others. Through experience we have the chance to become more competent, and usually stronger and safer divers. Ultimately I look forward to reaching a state of ability, where at one point I will trust in my understanding of the environment and myself in it to the exent where someday I may occasionally enjoy a solo dive. I am not there yet. As to likening a solo diving forum to a forum on drunk driving: Drunk drivers kill others, solo divers don't.
I also hope the forums on cave diving don't become forbidden- but talk about a dangerous sport. ...0)

 

[jtivat]

Edit

 

[MikeFerrara]

In contrast to a less than fully knowledgeable and experienced buddy, who can coast along on the rest of the team resources (until he loses track of them), solo divers need to master the complete set of skills including but not limited to site evaluation, self evaluation, self regulation, dive planning and air management, underwater navigation, redundant air supply selection and use and self rescue. At all times a solo diver needs to be fully aware of their situation as well as their abilities and limitations on that particular day and need sto self regulate to ensure their ability never approachs or exceeds the demands of the situation. Solo diving requires a specific attitude and philosophy as well as a skill set.

From your perspective, "new" skills set is perhaps a slight overstatement. We all would hope that all OW or at least AOW divers would be totally proficient with each of these skills. But if you are being totally honest Mike you'll need to acknowledge that the statement that "all divers should be equiped able and prepared to complete any dive they do alone or even helping a buddy if needed" is grossly optomistic in terms of the average OW and AOW diver.

I agree but that's the way training is and it's why some have trouble finding a good buddy. It's also why I say that "solo training" isn't the solution for poor buddy training. Good buddy training is the solution for that.

In the real world a fair number of OW and AOW arrive on shore or on the boat and do a lemming imitation where they follow the DM around and rely on the DM or the buddy to make the calls on air management etc and follow the herd as the principle means of navigation. So if you want to talk saftey, let's use real world buddies as well as the idealized fully competent buddy model to compare the saftey of buddy diving to solo diving.

See now every time I comment on how poor many divers are some one argues that it's not that bad. I also seems though that there's an awful lot of divers who don't want to dive with most other divers because of their skill level.

I don't blame you. I don't want to dive with the bad ones either and I won't unless I'm providing a class for em trying to fix it.

No diver comes out of the womb with an in-born set of scuba skills, even DIR divers. Even if a diver has every intention of being or becoming fully trained and competent, there is the period of time required to learn and apply these skills in the real world and during this time they are going to be lacking these skills while acting as a buddy. Well....they will be acting as someone's buddy assuming they can find a more experienced buddy who will dive with them despite their inevitable limitations in skills and experience.

If all divers were to insist on only diving with fully experienced and knowledgeable buddies, the current crop of experienced divers would eventually die off without imparting any knowledge to anyone less experienced and the dive industry would be defunct as soon as the last experienced buddy pair checked into the nursing home. This is the part of the philosophy of never diving with a less than fully competent buddy that some agencies push that I have never fully understood - it leaves no mechanisim for perpetuating the species other than violating one of the core principles of the philosophy.

I mention this as about half my dives are with new divers, relatively new divers or with semi-experienced divers who are incrementially building their skills and extending the range of situations in which they are comfortable diving. On these dives I plan it like I was going to be solo as I am not comfortable relying on a buddy who is going to be extending his own limits and focused on the dive rather than on any situation that may develop with me.

In the real world, learning continues to occur long after any particular certification is achieved and diving is very much a mentor/apprenticeship type of activity - as long as a new or less experienced diver can find a more experinced diver who can both teach in a supportive manner and who will park the "holier than thou" attitude and dive with them.

Solo diving involves an attitude and philosophy of self reliance that ensures that the diver will independently make his own go/no go decision on every dive and will be able to excercise the judgment needed to properly assess the conditions and self evaluate his or her skills to ensure they do not exceeed their abilities on a given dive. Solo diving philosophy also requires that the solo diver needs to be fully competent to perform any role on the "team" at anytime. In the end I think a self reliant solo diver will make a better buddy and with the right temperment will have the additional benefit of being better suited to dive with and mentor less experienced divers as their skills develop.

I know plenty of divers who are fine buddies and some are pretty new. In fact I won't even take an OW student into OW unless I think they can be a decent buddy.

True, the proof is in the puding or experience but if there are so many poor divins (and I'm not saying there aren't) where do we get all the solo divers?

All divers should be prepared to perform any role in the team on any dive. All divers should be self reliant. having two divers should make the team stronger rather than weaker.

I don't care if some one want to solo dive. I just don't think the arguement that solo diving is safer than diving with a bad buddy is valid since diving with a bad buddy should be out of the question in the first place.

 

[spthomas]

It appears to me, after reading all this, that the issue of "should people dive solo" is a good one, and there are thoughts on all sides of the issue. But I see another issue:

There are a LOT of people (look at the poll in the "Is Solo Diving ok" thread) that ARE going to dive solo. So what do we do for these folks? There are times that, even though we think what folks are doing is wrong, that we need to act to keept hem safe because they're going to do it anyway (applies to nearly EVERYTHING teenagers do!!).

So, if our poll is anywhere near representative of diving at large, 75% of divers will dive solo. So what do we do? Is solo training an answer? Or at least the agencies maybe could have materials that say "you shouldn't do this, but if you're going to, here are things you MUST do"?

Me? I've tried it, and don't particularly like it. I'm going to find buddies I can dive with, so I can enjoy it more.

=Steve=

 

[Scuba]

I don't care if some one want to solo dive. I just don't think the arguement that solo diving is safer than diving with a bad buddy is valid since diving with a bad buddy should be out of the question in the first place.

Just as some people function better working with others as a team, and not so well all alone by themselves. Some function better by themselves and not so well with others. Why should these people be prevented from diving to the best of their ability, and instead, be forced to dive with others increasing the risk to their buddy? Should they be prevented from diving at all?

 

[Timmerdown]

So, if our poll is anywhere near representative of diving at large, 75% of divers will dive solo. So what do we do? Is solo training an answer? Or at least the agencies maybe could have materials that say "you shouldn't do this, but if you're going to, here are things you MUST do"?

Me? I've tried it, and don't particularly like it. I'm going to find buddies I can dive with, so I can enjoy it more.

=Steve=[/QUOTE]

Wow look at all these people coming out of the closet. Perhaps it is something that more people enjoy than are ready to publicly Admit. Mostly I am Thoroughly buddy oriented, but now that I have a forum I guess I will have share... I am solo-curious!
Now there is a load off!