So who is the better diver?

[teknitroxdiver]

Alright, so now I guess the whole definition of proper trim is changing right before our very eyes.
Seems to me the whole debate about the decade old buzzword of "trim" at one time meant holding a perfect flat position with feet up at 45 to 90 degrees, arms out straight bend slightly at elbows with hands gently clasped. This is (was) what was defined to me and many others as "Perfect Trim". I even know people who weren't able to get a tech pass because they got out of perfect trim on skills. One inch out of trim.

So now I guess the word perfect trim applies to any posision that a diver needs to be in if they meant to do it and if they can hold that position whilst sitting still (as a default position that the body tends to naturally).
So with this new definition then I guess if I wanted to stand on my head the entire dive and do it inverted "just because I want to" then I guess to me that would be perfect trim.
Or if I wanted to do the entire dive on my back looking up to take in the view of the light coming down through the kelp forest and maybe use a mirror or something to make sure I don't hit my head on a rock or whatever, that's the new perfect trim.
Or what about this: what if a diver decides they want to do the whole dive verticle whilst flailing their arms all over doing hand swimming motions. According to them maybe they need the arm excercise and they have a bad neck so laying flat isn't an option. They have set their weight perfectly so they can maintain a perfect verticle position. Never mind the violent finning and the dust storm, they meant to do that, it keeps the brittle starts moving and is good for removing sediment and keeping the bottom dusted and clean.

OK thanks for clearing up what the new trim is.
I don't really worry too much about buzz words, I just dive.

Yes, and no. A diver paddling around head-up for the entire dive because they've never been taught anything else may be consistent in doing that, but they sure aren't "in trim".

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Alright, so now I guess the whole definition of proper trim is changing right before our very eyes.
Seems to me the whole debate about the decade old buzzword of "trim" at one time meant holding a perfect flat position with feet up at 45 to 90 degrees, arms out straight bend slightly at elbows with hands gently clasped. This is (was) what was defined to me and many others as "Perfect Trim". I even know people who weren't able to get a tech pass because they got out of perfect trim on skills. One inch out of trim.

That's a definition used by someone who doesn't really understand what the term refers to. What you describe would be good trim for someone moving forward, as it would minimize the amount of water they'd need to push out of their way in order to go ... and therefore minimizing effort, and therefore gas consumption.

So now I guess the word perfect trim applies to any posision that a diver needs to be in if they meant to do it and if they can hold that position whilst sitting still (as a default position that the body tends to naturally).

I'm not sure what anybody means by the term "perfect trim" ... "perfect" compared to what?

So with this new definition then I guess if I wanted to stand on my head the entire dive and do it inverted "just because I want to" then I guess to me that would be perfect trim.

Your ability to do so without the necessity to be constantly moving fins or hands to maintain that position would indicate that you were properly trimmed ... yes.

Or if I wanted to do the entire dive on my back looking up to take in the view of the light coming down through the kelp forest and maybe use a mirror or something to make sure I don't hit my head on a rock or whatever, that's the new perfect trim.

That would also indicate that you're properly trimmed ... if you can hold that position without moving. Uncle Pug used to do that on our safety stops routinely ... and I've watched people do extended deco stops in the supine position. They claim it's more relaxing.

Or what about this: what if a diver decides they want to do the whole dive verticle whilst flailing their arms all over doing hand swimming motions. According to them maybe they need the arm excercise and they have a bad neck so laying flat isn't an option. They have set their weight perfectly so they can maintain a perfect verticle position. Never mind the violent finning and the dust storm, they meant to do that, it keeps the brittle starts moving and is good for removing sediment and keeping the bottom dusted and clean.

I wouldn't have a clue what that diver was doing ... but whatever it was wouldn't have anything to do with trim.

When I want to evaluate someone's trim ... which I do with students all the time ... I want to see what happens when they stop all motion. If you have to move arms and fins in order to maintain a position, you're not properly trimmed ... even if you're doing it to hold yourself in a perfectly horizontal position.

I don't really worry too much about buzz words, I just dive.

I don't worry too much about buzz words either ... just thought you'd prefer to understand that the term doesn't mean what you think it means ... and it never has ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lowviz]

IMHO,

I see "trim" as your final, resting, "quiet" 3-axis configuration best defined by the three "traditional" orthogonal axes. loosely speaking: The lines that mark up-down, right-left, and forward-backward. In simple terms, what you look like when you come to rest.

You will sink, ascend, or stall in this configuration. That part is buoyancy.

If you are not in the trim that you desire for any given task, then you are not in "perfect" trim.

 

[beester]

Going back to the original post. The best diver IMHO is a diver with very good situational awareness. Being humble is also a good charactaristic but I believe the very good divers are already like that, they don't have EGO, they don't care what other people thing about them and they share information in a respectful and polite way with lesser mortals.


Good situational awareness (as been said by many before) means foremost level headedness but also using your mental bandwith at all times of the dive to check:
- Status of the dive (gas, depth, avg depth, time on bottom)
- How do I feel (warm, cold, how is my breathing, bit stressed, etc)
- How are my buddies (position relative to me, their gas, looking relaxed or not)
- The environment (current, vis, hazards)

- Before the dive someone who can react to all basic info about the dive and your buddies and can see through possible problem points and discuss these without degrading, humiliating or putting down someone.

Having all this in balance and under control means your ability to pro-actively react to sudden changes grows and you'll have a much more stress-free dive as a buddy-team.

 

[Akimbo]

There is a downside to seeking “perfect trim”. Unless you have lungs like a sparrow there is a good chance that you are not breathing deep enough to avoid CO2 buildup. Most people get away with it when shallow… which may be why so many divers think they are narc’d at 100'.

A slow deep breath can easily be 3 liters, or a change of displacement of 6.6 Lbs… unless you on a rebreather.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The ideal diver is one who hasn't bought into the dive industry's culture of bovine excrement or snobbery while developing skills or experience and therefore does not exist.

 

[lowviz]

Wendy introduced me to you last year. You just aren't anywhere near that cynical of a person, nice try.

We just may have some biz this year...

 

[CT-Rich]

hmmm, read through most of this thread and all I could think was, its kind of like asking who the best hiker is. I want a companion to be technically competent, but I am much more interested in a good companion. Someone knowledgable about diving, the dive site and fauna, but mostly just someone I would like to spend time with.

 

[Frosty]

To me the perfect diver can do what they want when they want competently and safely.
Incidently I've noticed one common trait with people I feel are great divers. NONE of them think they are great divers.So they in themselves are trying to be better and don't seem to have overflowing ego's