Split from Catalina Diver died.. Advanced Certification is a joke

[newmanl]

So how do you encourage people to get more training and more experience! So whether an certifying organization uses "Floors or Ceilings" it still boils down to a person who is free to do what they want and that includes no training beyond basic!

Diving is safe, but water is not always so, but it is the risk we knowingly take in order to dive!

With all due respect, the decision to recieve or seek out additional training due to an inadequate OW course should not be left to a student or newly minted diver. Would the aviation industry do that with pilots? I don't think so. Newly certified divers have such limited skills and experience that they can not possibly be expected to know what they don't know. Again, make the OW course a complete course, the objective of which should be to produce a relatively confident and capable begining diver. I certainly wouldn't want my next pilot to have to be "encouraged" to take further training to become competent in the skills I expect them to already have!

I realize one can not have an OW course long enough to teach them everything and there is a place for the "advanced" course and the specialties, but is it really asking too much to at least get them started with the basic skills they'll need to be proficient in participating in a sport that is so potentially dangerous as ours?

Lee
NAUI #7908

 

[Diver0001]

In contrast PADI sets MAXIMUM standards. In other words, PADI sets a ceiling which you cannot exceed. (In fact, it's a floor too since you can't fall below the standards.) However, there's a catch here and it's a discussion I've had with the PADI legal department frequently.


- Ken

This is a common misconception, Ken, especially among people who are not PADI instructors.

This is how it really works:

The standard, as you pointed out, is a "floor" or MINIMUM standard. Anything less than that is unacceptable to PADI. PADI, does not prescribe a maximum. I *MUST* as a PADI instructor, train them to hover, (to pick an example) motionless for 30 seconds. However, if the student can do it for 10 minutes, NOBODY at PADI is going to think I violated standards because there is no maximum. Just like there is no maximum number of times I'm allowed to ask them to R&R their mask, perform AAS skills, do a CESA. There is no maximum level of competence prescribed for agency sanctioned skills. It's up to instructor judgement.

That said, I MUST certify them if they peform to the minimum. That much is true, but how does this work in a course setting? Like this: I can't refuse to certify them if they can hover for 30 seconds but not for 10 minutes, but I am completely free to challenge them in the course to see who can "do it the longest" or whatever kind of game I want to make out of it... That's not "exceeding" standards. I can challenge them all I want, but the skill gets ticked off after 30 seconds. That's the point.

Where you get into "exceeding" is, for example, if I were to tell them that they *must* R&R their mask while hovering. I can let them try it but I can't judge them on it because performing the skill while hovering is not part of the course. There could theoretically also be legal implications if I told a student that they MUST perform a non-agency sanctioned skill and they had accident while trying it, which is why PADI instructors are cautioned against this kind of "exceeding".

That's the difference in nuance. NAUI instructor #1 can tell the student "you must be able to do this for 1 min (or whatever the minimum is) and NAUI instructor #2 can tell a student taking exactly the same course that "you MUST be able to do this until I say stop". As a PADI instructor I say "you must do this for at least 30 seconds... but let's see how long you can keep it going".

Some agencies allow their instructors to make up their own standards, but PADI doesn't. In some ways (apart from any discussions about whether or not the minimums are sufficient) the PADI approach is actually better, IMO, because a "loose canon" instructor can't break away from the heard and start putting their students through hell to get a c-card like happens in some other agencies.

I hope this clarifies.

R..

 

[rstofer]

While the folks I tend to *hang out* with are divers, a lot of certified divers dive a few times, and stop. I can't explain that. Maybe diving is a drug, and I can't understand an ability to resist that high.

Maybe the part where the water is cold and dark. Viz is crap and you have to trudge through the surf wearing a 70# pack and a 7mm wetsuit. Then you can swim out for 200 or 300 yards, dive a bit and then swim back in. Let's not forget the ever popular face-plant while trying to exit. There's not really anything fun about it.

I can understand why many people who get certified in Calif waters walk away from diving. Given the choice (and the money) I would be a resort diver too!

Oh well, somebody has to do it. I guess we'll just keep trudging...

Richard

 

[drbill]

I see a whole new set of specialty courses to resolve that rstofer! Tropical diver, temperate water diver, quarry diver, low vis diver, high current diver... It has long been our opinion locally that many divers who gain their certs in warm, clear tropical regions are really not ready to dive our colder, low viz waters where monster kelp waits to snag the unwary. Divers certified as quarry or temperate water divers could dive almost anywhere (except in the Arctic or Antarctic where they'd need to be polar diver certified), tropical divers only in the warm, clear tropics.

Great additional revenue generator for the agencies and better training for students!

 

[Madacub]

I think the class should be termed OW 2, and should leave out the deep dive and have a couple of PPB dives mandatory instead. Just my two cents' worth.

Agreed. So after OW1 and OW2, what do you think should come next? (name and content of course, please)

 

[rstofer]

Agreed. So after OW1 and OW2, what do you think should come next? (name and content of course, please)

NAUI used to call it Advanced Open Water.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

I see a whole new set of specialty courses to resolve that rstofer! Tropical diver, temperate water diver, quarry diver, low vis diver, high current diver... It has long been our opinion locally that many divers who gain their certs in warm, clear tropical regions are really not ready to dive our colder, low viz waters where monster kelp waits to snag the unwary. Divers certified as quarry or temperate water divers could dive almost anywhere (except in the Arctic or Antarctic where they'd need to be polar diver certified), tropical divers only in the warm, clear tropics.

Great additional revenue generator for the agencies and better training for students!

I started diving in south east Asia. T-shirt diving.

Then I came home to Calif and started diving at Monterey and Catalina (BEFORE they added the steps). It was an experience!

In my training nothing was ever mentioned about changes in wetsuit buoyancy. Nobody wore wetsuits. A few pounds of lead helped overcome the Al 80 tank buoyancy and that's about it.

Life was good!

It has all worked out okay but I do understand why new diver retention is a very low percentage.

You know, maybe global warming will have some benefits. I really prefer coral reefs to kelp forests. We have great beaches so a little warm water, a few coral reefs and we're all set!

Richard

 

[Papa_Bear]

With all due respect, the decision to recieve or seek out additional training due to an inadequate OW course should not be left to a student or newly minted diver. Would the aviation industry do that with pilots? I don't think so. Newly certified divers have such limited skills and experience that they can not possibly be expected to know what they don't know. Again, make the OW course a complete course, the objective of which should be to produce a relatively confident and capable begining diver. I certainly wouldn't want my next pilot to have to be "encouraged" to take further training to become competent in the skills I expect them to already have!

I realize one can not have an OW course long enough to teach them everything and there is a place for the "advanced" course and the specialties, but is it really asking too much to at least get them started with the basic skills they'll need to be proficient in participating in a sport that is so potentially dangerous as ours?

Lee
NAUI #7908

Not even in the same ball park! One thing is an OW diver is not piloting anything! Is responsible for them selves, is not going to fall from the sky and kill a lot of people! They are a consumer who picks their instructor pays their money and can WALK away at anytime! They choose whether to even show up or dive! This is not a license! DIVING IS NOT THAT DANGEROUS! I know we want to act like we are all Mike Nelson, but really it isn't very dangerous! The most dangerous part of diving is driving to the dive site! If this person died in a TA on the way we wouldn't be talking about it or the license test and training drivers get! Now there is the real issue 40000 die on the roads per year!

 

[TSandM]

Agreed. So after OW1 and OW2, what do you think should come next? (name and content of course, please)

I think something like UTD Essentials should be the next course, polishing buoyancy and trim, teaching a spectrum of propulsion techniques, teaching bag shooting, practicing emergency procedures, and polishing buddy skills. Such a class could also incorporate Rescue skills. THEN it's time for something like UTD Rec 2, which is a class focused on strategies for deep diving, including gas management information, further education on decompression, and polishing buoyancy skills and buddy skills for longer descents and ascents.

I really like the UTD recreational curriculum, having audited Essentials and taken Rec 2 and Rec 3. The only thing that wasn't covered very well was navigation, which I would put into that OW2 class. Navigation is an important skill for new divers, because feeling lost is a good way to get really anxious.

 

[Ytsejam]

I think something like UTD Essentials should be the next course, polishing buoyancy and trim, teachng a spectrum of propulsion techniques, teaching bag shooting, practicing emergency procedures, and polishing buddy skills. Such a class could also incorporate Rescue skills. THEN it's time for something like UTD Rec 2, which is a class focused on strategies for deep diving, including gas management information, further education on decompression, and polishing buoyancy skills and buddy skills for longer descents and ascents.

This path seems to be working well enough for me. Essentials introduced me to a whole set of new skills and really drove home the need for hard work and improvement.
I´m working on those skills and as soon as I feel ready and my instructor concurs, it´s on to Rec2. I encourage fellow newly certified divers to at least get acquainted with the UTD approach.