Split from Catalina Diver died.. Advanced Certification is a joke

[mathauck0814]

It has long been our opinion locally that many divers who gain their certs in warm, clear tropical regions are really not ready to dive our colder, low viz waters where monster kelp waits to snag the unwary.

Interestingly enough, when I introduced my significant other to diving in tropical waters of St. Maarten she wasn't sold. It wasn't until we took a week to Carmel and Monterey when she dove the kelp beds that she fell in love with the sport.

I agree that you're probably right, but it goes the other way sometimes as well.

 

[vjanelle]

But I do know that many of the IDCs firmly state "you cannot exceed standards" and that's not exactly correct. Splitting hairs, I know, but it does make a difference.
- Ken

Isn't it more like "you can't guarantee beyond the standards"? Like saying a person who did the 'deep' dive in AOW is perfectly fine to 130, vs 100 in the standard?

 

[newmanl]

Not even in the same ball park! One thing is an OW diver is not piloting anything! Is responsible for them selves, is not going to fall from the sky and kill a lot of people! They are a consumer who picks their instructor pays their money and can WALK away at anytime! They choose whether to even show up or dive! This is not a license! DIVING IS NOT THAT DANGEROUS! I know we want to act like we are all Mike Nelson, but really it isn't very dangerous! The most dangerous part of diving is driving to the dive site! If this person died in a TA on the way we wouldn't be talking about it or the license test and training drivers get! Now there is the real issue 40000 die on the roads per year!

Okay, I'll admit that the pilot analogy may not have been the best example, but here is a situation that illustrates my point: I was recently at a popular dive site used by a lot of stores for training and one of the groups present was a PADI AOW class doing their deep dive. I know the instructor and so we chatted for a moment after I asked, "So, how did the deep dive go?" He responded saying that he hoped none of them ever do such a dive again - buddies did not stay together, buoyancy skills were non-existent and visibility trashed. As a result, did he fail them? Nope. Did he make them take additional instruction or suggest they gain more experience with the basics before coming back to try again in order to earn a "passing" grade? Nope. Now they get a card that says they are "advanced" divers and with it, the idea they can dive to 100'. Want to have someone you really care about dive with one of them? I wouldn't.

At no time did I say or suggest that a scuba certification was anything other than a certification - I know it's not a licence. I also agree with you that diving is not dangerous, but tell that to someone who's loved one died because their mask came off or they lost a weightbelt.

All I'm suggesting, is that the basic course, and the advanced course, could do with a little more meat on their bones.

 

[DwayneJ]

Common thread and feedback is PADI could do with a course name change at the very least - OW1 and OW2. How about they fix the 60ft/Min Ascent rate at the same time??

 

[Papa_Bear]

Okay, I'll admit that the pilot analogy may not have been the best example, but here is a situation that illustrates my point: I was recently at a popular dive site used by a lot of stores for training and one of the groups present was a PADI AOW class doing their deep dive. I know the instructor and so we chatted for a moment after I asked, "So, how did the deep dive go?" He responded saying that he hoped none of them ever do such a dive again - buddies did not stay together, buoyancy skills were non-existent and visibility trashed. As a result, did he fail them? Nope. Did he make them take additional instruction or suggest they gain more experience with the basics before coming back to try again in order to earn a "passing" grade? Nope. Now they get a card that says they are "advanced" divers and with it, the idea they can dive to 100'. Want to have someone you really care about dive with one of them? I wouldn't.

At no time did I say or suggest that a scuba certification was anything other than a certification - I know it's not a licence. I also agree with you that diving is not dangerous, but tell that to someone who's loved one died because their mask came off or they lost a weightbelt.

All I'm suggesting, is that the basic course, and the advanced course, could do with a little more meat on their bones.

Well I agree that there is a million stories like that one and I know a few myself involving people who needed to know better and thought they had "Good" training! So lets hope that those people said to themselves "I learned I don't ever want to go deep without more training"! It has been said here a number of times "I would rather die doing something I love" and my family knows it!

I would hope we can instill into knew Divers the understanding that their OW card is just a release of Liability and that they should seek experience and proper training so you will know how close you came to doing something stupid! But we can't belittle people for what they don't know or make everyone a Black Diamond Skier, I have been saying for a long time we need to teach people that they are qualified for the Bunny Hill and for a lot that's fine!

Water sports are interesting in that if a person has a bad experience Snorkeling, Water Skiing, Swimming, and Diving they tend to be afraid of the water and not the lack of THEIR training! So how do we retain, motivate, and yes train those who can so easily say "I'll take up Pool" and never have to put myself into that situation again?

The activity has to presented and sold better, more about the wonders, and the fun of trip or Adventure its self! The social aspect of the local Club dive, where you can find social activities and friendship as well as the one or two hours you will spend underwater! Diving is a lot of travel, preparation, perspiration, dive dive dive, back to the beach undress redress, and what? For some of us it's the price we pay because we are hooked for so many different reasons.... Different for so many of us and yet so much the same!

You need stars, heroes, like in Motocross, Motor sports, people we can have as role models for the young willing to go through the training to stick with the activity! We need Branding, T-shirts, and anything else it takes to build curiosity with the general public so that the end numbers raise as a result!

The fact that this person was where she was is testament to he need to explorer her idea of diving. I don't know here motivation or if she felt pressure form someone or her own pressure to conquer own fear which may have won in the end? But she made the choice!

We have great training available if you want it and many should get it before the take the ride to the top! Many people feel when they are encouraged by a shop owner to continue their education that "They are only interested in making more money off me"!

You can lead a person to water, but you can't make them a dive unless they want to dive! If they do then the responsibility is in the hands of the motivator and mentor to instill the need to strive to be a better educated and experienced diver! An asset to the dive community and an ambassador to the dive world! If that person goes home with great tails and a smile more will be interested!

We need to drop the "If you get that BB Gun you'll put your eye out" mentality! We need to be mainstream activity not another "I could never do that" death deifying sport!

I love my diving and have for 30 years, but I loved the water first, and I want more people to be able to say "If he can do it, I know I can"!

 

[D_B]

Okay, I'll admit that the pilot analogy may not have been the best example, but here is a situation that illustrates my point: I was recently at a popular dive site used by a lot of stores for training and one of the groups present was a PADI AOW class doing their deep dive. I know the instructor and so we chatted for a moment after I asked, "So, how did the deep dive go?" He responded saying that he hoped none of them ever do such a dive again - buddies did not stay together, buoyancy skills were non-existent and visibility trashed. As a result, did he fail them? Nope. Did he make them take additional instruction or suggest they gain more experience with the basics before coming back to try again in order to earn a "passing" grade? Nope. Now they get a card that says they are "advanced" divers and with it, the idea they can dive to 100'. Want to have someone you really care about dive with one of them? I wouldn't.

At no time did I say or suggest that a scuba certification was anything other than a certification - I know it's not a licence. I also agree with you that diving is not dangerous, but tell that to someone who's loved one died because their mask came off or they lost a weightbelt.

All I'm suggesting, is that the basic course, and the advanced course, could do with a little more meat on their bones.

So . why didn't the instructor have anything to say to those students?
Why didnt he offer to do more dives with them and get them squared away?
Having buoyancy control, anti-silting techniques and buddy pairs are right there in the PADI manual in the deep dive section, even air consumption calculations are there .. if they can't do whats in the book to the instructors satisfaction, why do they pass ?

I do agree that the name needs changing .. to what it is, and what PADI calls it on the book .. Adventures In Diving
I still remember what I thought at the time ... that I had no need to be doing any, or taking any, advanced dive classes .. the name kinda scared me

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Other than the LA County Advance Course, I have yet to see any AOW curriculum from any of the standard agency that's worth a damn. They're no more than a few guided dives. I suppose with SSI, they won't issue you The Card until you get 24-dives in, but you can still take the course right out of OW.

So, let's be clear about it. AOW is a cert and it isn't an indication of anybody being an "advanced " diver. Heck, I feel pretty damn comfortable in the water nowadays but I am far from being an "advanced" diver.

Here is the AOW class I teach:

The SEI Diving Advanced Open Water Course as Presented by UDM Aquatic Services consists of two parts. Classroom and Open Water Training Dives. The Classroom portion takes approximately 8 hours and can be done in two sessions or with advance notice a special all day (9-5) session. There are 6 dives to this course. I do not offer fluff dives such as Fish ID, Boat Diver, etc. There is an optional dive that may be substituted for the Search and Recovery Dive ONLY! This would be a Wreck Dive( no penetration) but would require travel to Lake Erie or other body of water containing actual wrecks and would be priced accordingly. School buses and airplanes in a quarry are not wreck dives for purposes of the course.

The subjects covered in the classroom portion include but are not limited to:

Gas management(1/3rds, 1/6ths, Rock Bottom, Dive Planning using consumption- SAC, RMV), emergency deco procedures using SEI Diving Tables air deco schedule, anti-silting kicks, redundant air supplies and deployment of such. One other area that is extensively covered is gear selection and use. I use a variation of Tom Mount's Guidelines discussed in the Tao of Underwater Survival. I also reserve the right to require or prohibit the use of certain gear and will give detailed reasons as to why.

We'll also cover compass, natural, and line and reel navigation and selecting the best method for conditions.

Night and low vis techniques, communication, and hazards along with light, strobe/marker selection.

Deep diving skills will cover and utilize horizontal descents and ascents, use of redundant air, deep stops, and deco vs safety stops.

We will also cover Search and Recovery techniques, equipment, selection, and use. Rescue skills will be included during the Buddy Skills and Assist Dive.

Proper weighting and buoyancy control will be stressed on all dives! As well as maintaining position and contact with buddy or team members. There will be no buddy separation regardless of visibility, water temperature, or buoyancy issues! You stay with your dive buddy at all times!
The dives will consist of an:

Advanced Skills dive using anti-silting kicks, basic skills while swimming and hovering( no more than 2foot depth change permitted), proper positioning of the team, deployment of redundant air supply( slung pony or stage), bag shoot for ascent. We will also adjust and position for proper weighting

UW Navigation using compass, natural features, and line and reel. All this will be done while maintaining good trim and buoyancy. Role of each team member in navigation is critical and will be stressed in every phase of the dive.

Night/Low Vis- Use of lights for communication, deployment of back ups, Navigation at night or in low vis, maintaining good buddy contact, light failure procedures, and navigating a line without a light.

Deep Dive- Descent , trim, buoyancy, timed task, deep nav swim using reel and line, Deployment of redundant air source for ascent using deep stops, and don't be surprised at an OOA drill while we are down at 90-100 feet!

Search and Recovery- select method, search for and locate object, secure object to lift bag, move object 75-100 feet horizontally followed by swim to surface with it, then using bag return object to bottom.

Buddy Skills and Assist- buddy positioning while maintaining trim and buoyancy control, buddy breathing swim, buddy assisted 100 foot no mask swim while sharing air, 100 foot no mask swim followed by ascent from 25 foot platform while sharing air, loss of buoyancy assist to surface(maintain buddy at surface while they establish positive buoyancy via oral inflation, dropping of weights, or ditching of gear), rescue tow to shore.

All dives with the exception of the night dive will last 45 minutes to 1 hour. Plan tank requirements accordingly. Average depth save for deep dive will be 25-35 feet. Questions or to sign up call me at 724-255-3765 or email via my website at Welcome to UDM Aquatic Services

Note this is not an AOW tour. You will learn and put in some work to get this card. Prerequisites are min of 10 dives post OW cert and if I don't know you and have reservations as to your skills and experience during our interview you may be asked to do a pool session and perhaps a couple short local dives with me before being allowed to take this class. It will be fun yes but you are not buying a card when you train with me. Training is guaranteed, the card is earned.

 

[Scott]

Jim, are there any other options to your course? What if you have a student who simply has no desire to night dive or has no desire to search and recover an object off the bottom?

 

[Madacub]

Jim, I [-]think[/-] know I need your class! And a reel bargoon at $ 175. The part about gear selection is especially useful. I remember reading in another of your posts that you will also consult with new buyers as to their gear needs. Independent advice. That is vey useful, I think. But your course material does seem like a lot to cover in 6 dives. Especially if your prerequisite is just 10 prior dives. What is your average student experience?

But you sure do make it sound pretty intimidating. I can picture you walking around the classroom, a big ol' riding crop in your hand, with a gaggle of nervous students sweating it out. Can't you at least put some smiling attractive models on your site, cheerfully going about their training, showing that Jim is really a fun fun guy?

Which I bet you are. Umm...Jim?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

When I first became a NAUI instructor I read through the Advanced Scuba Diver materials and decided it was inadequate for the students I would be teaching ... so I created my own. Prior to becoming an instructor (when I was a DM at a local dive shop) I had created some workshop materials with a friend and fellow DM (BDub here on ScubaBoard) who has since gone on to become a UTD instructor. The kernel of that material was the gas management article that many of you have read and is now posted on my own website. The basis for the material we had created was to provide remedial help for newly-minted AOW-level divers who wanted to take their diving skills beyond the level mandated by any of the mainstream agencies. It focused heavily on dive planning, gas management, buddy skills, navigational skills, trim and buoyancy. I took this material and turned it into a handbook that is the basis for the AOW class I have been teaching since 2004. The course offers six dives. There are no "electives" ... because each dive focuses on a specific set of skills to help the student achieve the class objectives. Before we go deep the student must demonstrate an ability to plan a dive ... including a gas plan that calculates the gas volumes needed for the dive. They must demonstrate good buoyancy control ... which includes mid-water skills and making free ascents and stops. They must demonstrate good buddy skills, which includes communicating and interacting as a team. They must show a mastery of basic safety skillls ... their "deep test" is going to be an OOA drill, so they will have mastered this shallow before we go deep. They will learn how to deploy an SMB, and how to use a lift bag to bring a heavy object to the surface. Many of the class exercises are intended to teach the students how to control their buoyancy while task-loaded.

All of this is completely within the NAUI standards.

My class is open-ended ... and if a student didn't meet the objectives on a given dive, we'd do that dive again until they did. It's not unusual for this class to run 10 or more dives, and to take several weeks to complete. I have no hesitation about telling students what they need to work on and having them go practice certain skills on their own prior to re-doing the evaluation dive. But they MUST meet the class objectives in order to pass.

Bottom line for me is this ... the biggest objection I have to the current way AOW classes are taught is that they give the student the impression that because they've got the card, they're somehow qualified to be doing deep dives ... and by far the biggest reason people sign up for AOW is so they can do deep dives. In a lot of cases, they come out of the class as inadequately prepared for deep dive as they were when they went in. So before I ever give a student an AOW card (NAUI calls it Advanced Scuba Diver, BTW), I am going to be satisfied that these divers can do an unsupervised dive to 100 fsw safely, which includes the proper mindset to determine whether or not the conditions for that dive are suitable for their experience and equipment ... in other words, they're gonna have enough knowledge to know when to say "not today".

For those who think students wouldn't be attracted to such a class, I'm here to tell you that I've had students travel to Seattle from all over the USA to take it (that surprised no one more than me). I got to the point where I taught this class to the point of burn-out ... and am currently taking a break from teaching because of it.

So there's a market out there for an AOW class with some meat to it ... to my concern, the mainstream agencies are missing out by not offering one for students who want that type of class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)