Split from Deep diving advice ... The Exley side-bar

[John C. Ratliff]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been split from here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...advice-goes-against-conventional-thought.html. Please keep all the off topic stuff about Exley etc. on this thread.

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I have just read the Bret Gillium blog titled,ZACATON: The Tragic Death of Sheck Exley


His death, and that dive, had nothing to do with "deep air." This was an extreme dive, which had been highly planned, and which used mixed gas. After reading this, some of the comments here (on this thread) about Bret Gillium seem to be very, very off-base.

SeaRat

 

[danvolker]

Personally I am not going to consider much of a distinction between a deep air record, and a record for deep on Trimix..both are stupid beyond belief, Sheck knew better than to go for either, and the morons he was hanging around with, built this pursuit into something that hooked him.
The discussions of this were heavy back on Cavers and the tech list in the 90's....it was discussed to death. Bret was big on chasing depth records back in that time span, so whatever he has in this blog, it would almost have to be an attempt to make Sheck's attempt seem well planned--which by the result, was obviously not.

 

[Wookie]

I have just read the Bret Gillium blog titled,ZACATON: The Tragic Death of Sheck Exley


His death, and that dive, had nothing to do with "deep air." This was an extreme dive, which had been highly planned, and which used mixed gas. After reading this, some of the comments here (on this thread) about Bret Gillium seem to be very, very off-base.

SeaRat

So, a 452 foot dive on a single 80 is to be applauded, or did you miss that account?

 

[danvolker]

From: "G. Irvine" <gmirvine@safari.net>
Organization: Woodville Karst Plain Project
Subject: Re: Palmer, Parker, Exley and McFaden
BULL**** on all counts. That was the third dsy of this activity , Pete.
This was a deep air death, and all of you who are trying to cover it up
and deny it are proving that you just don't know much about basic
diving. Go back and look at the gear descriptiuon, the original report,
and then look and see it was the usual suspects, and that the story
changed ten times, just like the rebreather accident stories that we
hear, and in fact these guys were so anxious to dispel the notion that
it was rebreather related, that they spilled the beans on the deep air.
One of the morons even put it in wirting that the dive was planned to
"ninety meters: Pete only a stroke dives to 90 m on air.

The bottom line is that the guys is dead from deep air - how he got
thjere is called peer pressure, and if you want to blame it on borrowed
gear, or whatever - then it is just plain stupid, and like you say, "out
of character" as we knew him, and an extreme waste. Don;t make it worse
by lending your name to the concept that this was anything but a
strokefest ending in death.

Pete, why was the boat OFF the wall? I can tell you from doing it
myself: you can't get deep enough if you have to swim away once down -
remember you have to0 do these dives very fast - most of these have a
"shoreline" at 320, and you need to swim out a ways to get the 400+
stuff. You then come up back into the wall. Don't tell me about no depth
sounder, the edge is clear as day. This was an intentional deep air
operation.

I konw a lot more about this sport that you have the time to ever
learn, and I am calling it an obvious deep air death.


Peter Heseltine wrote:
>
> Geo -
>
> At 04:28 PM 8/29/97 -0400, G. Irvine wrote:
> >Pete, I have it from those who were last diving in the Bahamas with Rob
> >that he was in fact doing .. intentional deep air diving), and
> >from some in the UK who said he was doing that in the Red Sea.
>
> I guess this seems so out of character and the reports (printed and spoken)
> all say that he was in trouble long before he got to ~200, where at the
> earliest, he might have taken an O2 hit. My point was that he might have
> been dropping fast (he was off a wall, but in 1200m according to Bill
> Hamilton) because he was heavily weighted and was using borrowed equipment
> (also from Bill). What was to stop him? His BC; the most poorly maintained
> part of any borrowed kit. It's almost a badge of honor to see someone
> wearing a faded, tattered BC, too often with an LP hose of the same
> vintage. Would you put a reg in your mouth that looked like that? So why
> strap on 30lbs and drop over the side into the blue without checking it's
> working or at least having a plan if it doesn't.
>
> >In this...
> >kind of diving, both deep air drops and Exley's thing, they try to get
> >down as fast as possible ( even though Exley told me the HPNS would be a
> >real problem), so yes, a bc problem would be bad, and Exley was wrapped
> >up in the line, but then how do we have those prpoblems , Pete, when we
> >are prepared properly unless we are impaired improperly?
>
> My point exactly. All the equipment needs to be prepped, including the
> flotation.
>
> > Pete, the problems are as follows: Rule Number One. Option Number One.
> >To wit, "don't dive wtih strokes" ( only a stroke dives deep air), and
> >"Don't dive", meaning, if you can not do it right all the way for
> >whatever reason, do not dive. This means even if you just don't feel
> >like it.
>
> You're right, but we've all been there - a great dive and a single
> "non-essential" piece of equip that's not right - and we still go. We are
> just luckier than they are.
>
> >Peter Heseltine wrote:

---------- Post added March 14th, 2014 at 10:18 PM ----------

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:28:20 -0400
From: "G. Irvine" <gmirvine@safari.net>
Organization: Woodville Karst Plain Project
Subject: Re: Palmer, Parker, Exley and McFaden
Pete, I have it from those who were last diving in the Bahamas with Rob
that he was in fact doing this there ( intentional deep air diving), and
from some in the UK who said he was doing that in the Red Sea. In this
kind of diving, both deep air drops and Exley's thing, they try to get
down as fast as possible ( even though Exley told me the HPNS would be a
real problem), so yes, a bc problem would be bad, and Exley was wrapped
up in the line, but then how do we have those prpoblems , Pete, when we
are prepared properly unless we are impaired improperly?

Pete, I was Exley's dive partner for most of his last months of diving.
I spent a lot of time wuith him. I talked to him every night on the
phone. When my wife finally asked me why Exley no longer called me , I
told her, "DEEP AIR". My kids just started diving again a month ago -
they quit when Sheck got killed.

I really liked Sheck, he would show up and dive when everyone else had
a long face and a limp dick - but he died doing something stupid that he
was too smart to have done, just like Rob Palmer, adn jsut liek Rob
Palmer he cast his lot with idiots and known strokes, and just like
Palmer he let a bunch of nobodies from nowhere get him going.

Pete, the problems are as follows: Rule Number One. Option Number One.
To wit, "don't dive wtih strokes" ( only a stroke dives deep air), and
"Don't dive", meaning, if you can not do it right all the way for
whatever reason, do not dive. This means even if you just don't feel
like it.

Pete, I am not trying to argue with the particulars of what you are
saying, I am saying it is a little tough to claim break failure when
you're driving drunk - what difference does it make.

Peter Heseltine wrote:
>
> Let's assume that George is right - just for a moment ;-)
>
BTW, this is usually a safe bet. - G

 

[boulderjohn]

Personally I am not going to consider much of a distinction between a deep air record, and a record for deep on Trimix..both are stupid beyond belief, Sheck knew better than to go for either, and the morons he was hanging around with, built this pursuit into something that hooked him.

I never met Sheck, but I think he brought a lot of that motivation to the table all by himself. Sheck was, of course, a pioneer in cave diving, and he edited the early NSS-CDS newsletter. These were typed on paper, and a recent project in which I participated to a small degree got them digitalized. In doing that, I was struck by his clear interest in setting records--depth, penetration, etc. His newsletters included charts showing who had set what records where. His name was prominent in them, and I got the clear impression that he really liked typing his name in as many places as he could. Did the others give him a push in that direction? I have no idea, but I doubt it took more than a nudge if they did.

Now that I have said that, I want to add that I have a lot of respect for him and all the good he did in making cave diving the safe activity it is today. I hope this thread does not evolve into one that sullies that reputation.


.

 

[danvolker]

From: <kirvine@safari.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:29:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Account of Sheck Exleys Death?
Art, this was a real disaster. He was not allowed to bring anyone but
Marry Ellen as support. Then he tried to go the first 400 feet on air.

The whole thing was ridiculous, a real waste.

 

[boulderjohn]

As a participant in this thread, I am not supposed to moderate, but I am afraid we are going very far off topic with this discussion. I have a lot of responses that I am not making because of that.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Wookie, nope, I did not miss that, nor do I applaud any of these efforts at depth records. All I was doing was comparing the written commentary here with what apparently happened, according to his dive buddy Jim Bowden. You simply cannot compare these record attempts to a recreational diver diving to 120 feet on air. That is like comparing flying a piper cub to the private attempt to produce an orbital vehicle. The two are not in the same ballpark, to mix metaphors completely.

By the way, I found a thread here an the cost of tri-mix. It seems like the tri-mix is somewhere over $50/fill for a single 80 AL cylinder. you are advocating tri-mix for a dive greater than 50 feet in depth. This is sounding like a fear-mongering scheme to make money off gullible divers.

SeaRat

 

[boulderjohn]

By the way, I found a thread here an the cost of tri-mix. It seems like the tri-mix is somewhere over $50/fill for a single 80 AL cylinder. you are advocating tri-mix for a dive greater than 50 feet in depth. This is sounding like a fear-mongering scheme to make money off gullible divers.

Except that the people advocating it the most are not themselves selling it. In my experience, they are, however, people for whom the cost of helium is not a major concern, just as I don't think Donald Trump frets about the price of fuel in his yacht.

 

[danvolker]

I never met Sheck, but I think he brought a lot of that motivation to the table all by himself. Sheck was, of course, a pioneer in cave diving, and he edited the early NSS-CDS newsletter. These were typed on paper, and a recent project in which I participated to a small degree got them digitalized. In doing that, I was struck by his clear interest in setting records--depth, penetration, etc. His newsletters included charts showing who had set what records where. His name was prominent in them, and I got the clear impression that he really liked typing his name in as many places as he could. Did the others give him a push in that direction? I have no idea, but I doubt it took more than a nudge if they did.

Now that I have said that, I want to add that I have a lot of respect for him and all the good he did in making cave diving the safe activity it is today. I hope this thread does not evolve into one that sullies that reputation.


.

Sheck and George were best friends....this was well known in the 90's, though not so much today with revisionists like Bowden and Gilliam.
Nothing was more instrumental in George's rants against deep record depths or deep air, or the danger of diving with Strokes, than the death of Exley...
So from my perspective, since all I am doing is sharing information from one of the few people that was friends with Sheck--and that knew the entire background story...there is nothing I am going to say to sully Sheck...and nothing George would say.....I am sure George would say that Sheck would have said all the things George said about his own death...particularly that Sheck would say that he knew better, and allowed himself to be talked in to the drama of the record setting, even with the ridiculousness of the non-support and bad planning.

I heard a lot about Sheck from George, and from Bill Mee....and it was all 100% the kind of talk you hear about someone that is revered.

---------- Post added March 14th, 2014 at 10:57 PM ----------

As a participant in this thread, I am not supposed to moderate, but I am afraid we are going very far off topic with this discussion. I have a lot of responses that I am not making because of that.

John
The reason I posted the Tech list stuff on Sheck, was that this really is dead on point with the deep air and danger issue, along with deep records, and the concept of very bad planning, and hanging around with a very bad peer group.

Also, there is a huge difference in just diving to 130 to 160 feet on air...in my mind or George's.... versus hearing about an air attempt to 400, or deeper...or in hearing about trimix to 800 or deeper without the full umbilical and a real team of experts.....
Having a couple of losers that know nothing, as your team, does not count, and having completely the wrong gear for the depth, is another issue.....