Split from: Diver Death in Cayman

[Qnape]

I'm pretty new here and at diving, and I realize that like many of you I knew less than I thought at the various stages of my training to date. As the purpose of this section of the forum is to discuss how to avoid incidents such as the present case, I have a question.

While I understand why it it wise to gain some real world experience before continuing from OW to AOW, suppose that the diver in this case had done just that. Would he not at the very least have obtained additional experience and enough additional training to potentially have avoided the outcome here? Would denying him that training seem wise in retrospect had this incident then occurred?

As I explained in the divemaster resposibilities offshoot of this thread, I am guilty of rushing to AOW (yes, through PADI, but after being rebuffed by my instructor at first then completing 6 additional dives, 2 accompanied by our instructor). My reasoning as a complete novice was that as I had heard (perhaps here?) that many dive ops brought their groups regularly to 90+ feet in Cozumel regardless of OW / AOW status and we were heading there, my buddy (15 year old daughter) and I should get more experience and training than I first surmised was needed (i.e. OW cert). Of course, the option to not dive if the plan was unacceptable to us is always there, but as most novice divers I am sure, we wanted to dive.

As it turned out the dive op we chose was particularly safety conscious and responsible and we hired a private divemaster for the week despite our additional training.

 

[Riger]

I'm pretty new here and at diving, and I realize that like many of you I knew less than I thought at the various stages of my training to date. As the purpose of this section of the forum is to discuss how to avoid incidents such as the present case, I have a question.

While I understand why it it wise to gain some real world experience before continuing from OW to AOW, suppose that the diver in this case had done just that. Would he not at the very least have obtained additional experience and enough additional training to potentially have avoided the outcome here? Would denying him that training seem wise in retrospect had this incident then occurred?

As I explained in the divemaster resposibilities offshoot of this thread, I am guilty of rushing to AOW (yes, through PADI, but after being rebuffed by my instructor at first then completing 6 additional dives, 2 accompanied by our instructor). My reasoning as a complete novice was that as I had heard (perhaps here?) that many dive ops brought their groups regularly to 90+ feet in Cozumel regardless of OW / AOW status and we were heading there, my buddy (15 year old daughter) and I should get more experience and training than I first surmised was needed (i.e. OW cert). Of course, the option to not dive if the plan was unacceptable to us is always there, but as most novice divers I am sure, we wanted to dive.

As it turned out the dive op we chose was particularly safety conscious and responsible and we hired a private divemaster for the week despite our additional training.

Good question... I would hesitate to say that the AOW would have provided the foundation required to avoid this incident. In fairness, DM/DG aside, we do not know what caused this diver to exceed his depth limits or even if there were any other external factors.

The aspect of AOW that would have been beneficial would have been the additional dive experience achieved. This additional dive experience could have been achieved outside of a training environment however and in less "risky" (shallower hard floor) conditions.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[bwerb]

Qnape, I think that the terminology "Advanced" Open Water is an unfortunate misnomer. I strongly dislike much of the garbage I see and hear in the current recreational dive world with the push of course upon course upon course as individual money makers instead of the first three being taught together as a real foundation. I see the triple problems of
1.) thinking that a class titled "advanced" means I'm "advanced"
2.) reinforcing the concept that a "card" = experience
3.) replacing time in the water with certification chasing as a goal instead of becoming a truly competent diver.


The advanced course in the PADI world is really just a few extra supervised experience dives. I don't have an issue at all with people going directly from OW to AOW and even then to Rescue without a great deal of extra diving...not because I think they are creating "advanced divers" but because I think that quite frankly, the three classes together are really the foundational prerequisite for safe comfortable diving...basically in my mind they "are" the OW course.

I think that when you look at the accident reports of many incidents you'll see divers who by their actions "trusting the DM", not asking questions, doing "guided" trust-me dives and with major skills deficits really aren't ready to be in the water unsupervised. The current state of PADI OW with the availability of "zero to hero" instructors seems to just be perpetuating the blind leading the blind...no one even knows what they don't know.

A great instructor is a must...but unfortunately, most people until they become divers don't even know that they have been shortchanged and/or how to tell? Unfortunately we are often only aware of our poor training much much later and I hate to say it, but many divers don't ever realize that the are pitifully trained and don't care...put it this way...if you are on a scuba diving website, at least you have your eyes somewhat open to realizing that there is more to learn and aspire to.

 

[Qnape]

Qnape, I think that the terminology "Advanced" Open Water is an unfortunate misnomer. I strongly dislike much of the garbage I see and hear in the current recreational dive world with the push of course upon course upon course as individual money makers instead of the first three being taught together as a real foundation. I see the triple problems of
1.) thinking that a class titled "advanced" means I'm "advanced"
2.) reinforcing the concept that a "card" = experience
3.) replacing time in the water with certification chasing as a goal instead of becoming a truly competent diver.


The advanced course in the PADI world is really just a few extra supervised experience dives. I don't have an issue at all with people going directly from OW to AOW and even then to Rescue without a great deal of extra diving...not because I think they are creating "advanced divers" but because I think that quite frankly, the three classes together are really the foundational prerequisite for safe comfortable diving...basically in my mind they "are" the OW course.

I think that when you look at the accident reports of many incidents you'll see divers who by their actions "trusting the DM", not asking questions, doing "guided" trust-me dives and with major skills deficits really aren't ready to be in the water unsupervised. The current state of PADI OW with the availability of "zero to hero" instructors seems to just be perpetuating the blind leading the blind...no one even knows what they don't know.

A great instructor is a must...but unfortunately, most people until they become divers don't even know that they have been shortchanged and/or how to tell? Unfortunately we are often only aware of our poor training much much later and I hate to say it, but many divers don't ever realize that the are pitifully trained and don't care...put it this way...if you are on a scuba diving website, at least you have your eyes somewhat open to realizing that there is more to learn and aspire to.

I could not agree more with much of what you've stated. We wanted to take the AOW for the purpose of gaining additional experience before diving in Cozumel, and were under no illusions of being "advanced". While our dive op required a private DM for us due to lack of ocean experience and my daughter's age, they indicated after two days of diving that based upon what they observed we no longer required that level of supervision. We chose to finish out the week with the private DM anyway. We've since spent a week diving in Utila, and felt confident and prepared. The extra experience gained in AOW was of great help we believe, compounded by difficult conditions faced during those dives (PA quarry during very stormy weather in late October). To me, even as an total novice, the additional experience to be gained in AOW seemed wise to obtain before tackling a week in Cozumel. Of course, having your 15 yr old as a buddy does wonders to increase your desire for safety, training and experience. Rescue is on our plate for sometime in the next year, after several more dives.

I can't help but think that if the AOW dives were rolled in as an additional requirement for OW instead there might be fewer incidents such as this. Agreed, we don't know enough about the specific circumstances here, but at least a supervised deeper dive would have been accomplished under supervision.

 

[Dadvocate]

1.) thinking that a class titled "advanced" means I'm "advanced"
2.) reinforcing the concept that a "card" = experience
3.) replacing time in the water with certification chasing as a goal instead of becoming a truly competent diver.

The advanced course in the PADI world is really just a few extra supervised experience dives. I don't have an issue at all with people going directly from OW to AOW and even then to Rescue without a great deal of extra diving...not because I think they are creating "advanced divers" but because I think that quite frankly, the three classes together are really the foundational prerequisite for safe comfortable diving...basically in my mind they "are" the OW course.

It is very interesting that you should say this. I agree with the sense you have about cards replacing time in the water. I have felt this pretty much from the start when I got my PADI OW card. I told myself I would need to first get time in the water before going for the AOW course. As it turned out, I had nearly 60 dives when I signed up for this course. I wanted to have at least 150 dives before considering the rescue diver course. I signed up with 185 dives when I took the class in Seattle.

I am now thinking of starting the DM course, but I am also wary of the fact that I am diving a lot less now in China than I was when I lived in the Philippines. I’m going to hold off on the decision until I get back from Cairns this summer (winter) to see if this down time has had any effect on my skill level in the water. I was certified as a recue diver in August 2008 and have done about 24 dives since then. I haven’t breeched the surface since March, which feels odd compared to when I was in the water at least twice a month in the Philippines.
I’m 200 plus dives in and at times I still feel open water like, if that makes any sense.

Perhaps it is good that I keep things moving at this pace. The problem is that I am also not thinking about diving as much as when I knew I was going to be diving more often. I think there has to be a lot to be said for keeping your mental diving sharp as much as anything else. Perhaps this is the best reason to take the DM course in Beijing over a longer duration. It isn’t the same as in-water experience for sure, but at least I won’t be allowing myself to get too complacent with the mental aspects of diving before I do get back in to the water again.

This is a very informative thread, everyone. Thanks for all the excellent comments up to this point. For what it is worth, I think quite a few people can learn from this tragedy, even people like me with some experience.

Cheers!

 

[openmindOW]

I think that the terminology "Advanced" Open Water is an unfortunate misnomer.

Amen.

 

[pilot fish]

It really comes down to this: Just because you are certified, does not mean you are qualified.

 

[Rhone Man]

Qnape, I think that the terminology "Advanced" Open Water is an unfortunate misnomer.

At the risk of a hijack, under the old BSAC training system, divers used to be referred to as "third class", "second class" and "first class" for what might loosely now equate to OW, AOW and Rescue (very loosely). It got dropped because no one liked being called second class, much less third class. But I have to say, it might remove some delusions of grandeur from less experienced divers if those titles were more commonly in use today.

 

[cerich]

It really comes down to this: Just because you are certified, does not mean you are qualified.

that has been a NAUI statement for decades....

 

[bwerb]

At the risk of a hijack, under the old BSAC training system, divers used to be referred to as "third class", "second class" and "first class" for what might loosely now equate to OW, AOW and Rescue (very loosely). It got dropped because no one liked being called second class, much less third class. But I have to say, it might remove some delusions of grandeur from less experienced divers if those titles were more commonly in use today.

It's totally a societal thing...everyone want's to be "special" and "advanced" immediately instead of actually working slowly to the point that your certification actually means something. This is apparent with everything from grade inflation in university to "contractor grade" power tools.

In the immortal words of Tyler Durden: Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else. (and just because your c-card says "advanced" doesn't mean that your dive skills or knowledge are.)