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SSI or PADI

Discussion in 'New Divers and Those Considering Diving' started by Chad S, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. yle

    yle Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Southern California
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    That's a very strange request...

    This is okay... experience matters when forming opinions. But extrapolating your opinion of a few instructors to make generalized statements of entire agencies that are presented as fact is... ridiculous. And it's sad to imagine anyone taking such advice seriously.

    I think just about everyone agrees with this. Regardless of what agency, big or small, the instructor is registered with, it is really just the dedication of the instructor, and the interest the instructor has in delivering a course which provides value to the student, that matters. Thank you for coming around.
     
  2. yle

    yle Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Southern California
    1,293
    1,082
    113
    Try not to take it personally... apparently Sinbad has been burnt by some poor experiences with instructors of certain agencies. It's natural for someone with hurt feelings to lash out at those they feel are responsible, even if they are only remotely connected (e.g. by the same worldwide agency.)
     
  3. yle

    yle Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Southern California
    1,293
    1,082
    113
    The specific skill requirements for hovering and neutral buoyancy in the PADI OW course are after CW1. But that does not mean you cannot introduce the idea and allow students to practice them in CW1 (as many instructors have explained that they do.) It simply means that mastery of the skill to the specified duration (30 seconds, 60 seconds...) cannot be made a requirement of the CW1 session.
     
  4. dcg69

    dcg69 Divemaster Candidate

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Netherlands
    48
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    That's a good way to look it, thanks for sharing
     
  5. sigxbill

    sigxbill Tech Instructor

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    Your assertion may be true to a large degree, but I assure you that there is also a degree to which potential graduates self-eliminate from programs they would not complete (for various reasons other than not being able to do it) prior to starting.

    The thing is that if something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. I have personally conducted this same survey, except from a sample of hundreds - and have come to the exact same conclusion. Then I studied why that might be for more than a decade. There is a reason Sinbad had this experience, and the reason is that some agencies do a better job of ensuring high quality than others - which increased the odds that Sinbad would have the experience he had. And that is what is and should be the job of agencies - to ensure that the student, who doesn't know what to look for, gets a particular experience when they choose a course from that agency. The notion that it's the instructor that is important and not the agency excuses the agency from their primary duty.

    Actually you are wrong, not everyone agrees with this statement - including myself. How could I agree with this statement if I believe in my previous statement? Answer: I couldn't. And what would be the point of there being more than one agency if this were true? There would be no point ....
     
  6. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    26,573
    19,093
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    Here is the scoop on passing rates according to instructional theory--preview: it has nothing to do with "high standards."

    1. A properly designed course starts with establishing the standards for the course--this is what students MUST accomplish by the end of the course.
    2. The course is then designed in such a way that students who have the appropriate prerequisite skills and the proper motivation and effort will reach those standards by the time allotted for instruction.
    3. In properly designed and taught course, there should be few failures. If a course has a high failure rate, then the reason must be due to a combination of the following factors:
      1. Unmotivated students are not trying hard enough
      2. Poor screening allows students without the proper prerequisite skills to enter the course. (A student who has just completed Algebra I will not pass calculus.)
      3. A poorly designed curriculum makes learning too difficult because it does not properly transition students through learning stages.
      4. The course does not allow enough time for students to reach the standards through proper instruction. (Calculus I will not be completed in one month.)
      5. The instructor is providing very poor quality instruction.
    That is standard educational theory. In a properly designed course, the standards are appropriate for the course. If you are saying that students are failing because standards are so high, then what you are really saying is that the stndards are not appropirate to the course; the course was not properly designed to have student meet the standards. If highly motivated students are failing the class in large numbers, the the fault is in a combination of items 2-4 above, all of which are under the control of the agency and/or instructor.

    High failure rates in a course like this should be a source of embarrassment, not pride.
     
    Bob DBF, yle, oly5050user and 2 others like this.
  7. CAPTAIN SINBAD

    CAPTAIN SINBAD Divemaster Candidate

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Woodbridge VA
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    Just to be clear, I know some amazing instructors who are PADI and also some amazing ones that are SSI. I attribute their "awesomeness" to their own selves and not to the agencies that they represent. Agency name in these situations is really not indicative of quality so these instructors will have to build a reputation for their own self, independently of the agency that they teach for.

    Then there are certain agencies like GUE, UTD (and possibly RAID and PSAI but I am not sure about these) that keep their instructor pool very small because they are very conscious of internal quality control. When you get a good course from one of their instructors then there is a certain credit that is due to the agencies too because unlike the hoard of agencies out there, these smaller agencies have done a great job in filtering out the bad apples and keeping the instructor pool limited to those who are very well vetted into their teaching circles.

    True story: I was on the diveboat in the Caribbean. The divemaster had just celebrated her 100th dive a few days before I came. Every single person on the boat had more dives than the DM and the DM was obviously the least experienced person in the water. The girl needed help!

    If you look at PADI requirements for a DM this is what you will find:

    PADI DM Requirements:
    • At least 40 logged dives to begin the course and 60 dives to earn certification.

    PADI Divemaster Course

    Now look at the following:

    UTD DM Requirments:

    Pre-requisites: Minimum 21 years of Age,
    Minimum Dives after Open Water: 200

    Dive Master ยท UTD Scuba Diving

    So yes, there are some experienced PADI DMs but see where agency deserves credit?
     
  8. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Dubai UAE
    3,630
    3,869
    113
    [QUOTE="CAPTAIN SINBAD, post: 8524024, member: 169750"
    True story: I was on the diveboat in the Caribbean. The divemaster had just celebrated her 100th dive a few days before I came. Every single person on the boat had more dives than the DM and the DM was obviously the least experienced person in the water. The girl needed help!

    [/QUOTE]

    Using your logic. I've just checked out two divers who want to come on one of our trips to the tip of the Musandam - Blue water divign, often unpredictable currents

    Both had + 500 dive, both 6 months ago got a Rec pass in Fundies.

    Both divers failed the check dive for various reasons, the main one being that they couldn't' hold a blue water stop - maintaining a visual reference on the dsmb to +/- 18" And they weren't even in much of a horizontal current.

    So Is GUE rubbish? I don't think so - I'm no fan but I admire their principles

    Was the Instructor Poor - I know his reputation which is highly regarded, he also makes dives way beyond anything I'll ever be capable of.

    Maybe teh students passed the course to the required standard but haven't applied themselves nor practiced afterwards.
     
  9. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Dubai UAE
    3,630
    3,869
    113
    .....
     
  10. BlueTrin

    BlueTrin ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: London
    1,668
    800
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    This quote above fitted your avatar, sounded like a long yawn :)
     

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