Swimming ...

[RJP]

OK, then how’s this: The SEALs would be using the frog kick instead of the flutter on their long duration swims if it were more efficient. Biomechanics is the same for swimmers, freedivers, Scuba divers, and humans in general. The frog kick is effective in some circumstances such as preventing disturbing silt, but is not more efficient than the flutter.

Now the OP is doing long-distance swim with SEALS?

 

[Akimbo]

Now the OP is doing long-distance swim with SEALS?

No, but it is an applicable analogy. A great deal of research has been expended to extend combat swimmer’s capacity; much of it speaks directly to swimming efficiency. So what information can you provide to support your statement that the frog kick is more efficient?

---------- Post added November 17th, 2014 at 04:04 PM ----------

I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the fact that SEAL teams primarily use a flutter kick. Breathing rate is not a big issue since they are on rebreathers, and speed is of very high importance to most of their missions so they are going to primarily use a kick that gets them there fast...

Drag increases exponentially with speed, so combat swimmers don’t move much faster than recreational Scuba divers heading back to the boat. The big difference is they swim tremendous distances and still have enough energy left to perform a mission and swim back. Most of that capability is due to physical conditioning, but there are a lot of people on the research side trying to figure out every possible way to give them an edge.

 

[RJP]

No, but it is an applicable analogy. A great deal of research has been expended to extend combat swimmer’s capacity. So what information -can you provide to support your statement that the frog kick is more efficient?

So, you're suggesting that research done on some of the most physically fit people on the planet, in likely ridiculously demanding situations, is apples-to-apples applicable to the average recreational diver who wants to look at pretty fishies and then go have a pina colada?

I can only imagine what it would be like to be an out of shape, handful-of-dives-a-year, recreational diver doing a p***-poor bicycle-style flutter kick with crappy fins... desperately trying to keep up with navy seals and Michael Phelps.

Admittedly, all I've got is my own N=1 study. But as a lifelong competitive swimmer who logs 3,000-4,000yds four days a week at a 1:25 pace and roughly 100 dives a year I can tell you that while my flutter kick is highly efficient in the pool, pushing my FastSkin3 jammer-wearing, silicone-capped, Swedish goggled, shaved body through the water... it's not worth much pushing my steel doubles-toting, deco/sling-bottle carrying, drysuit-clad, Jet-fin wearing body through the ocean. On the other hand, my picture-perfect, high-torque, albeit leisurely paced, frog-kick (which does just fine on reefs and in wrecks and caves) would be pretty sh***y if I was asked to anchor the freestyle leg of a 4x100M medley relay.

BTW - the arms do the vast majority of work in freestyle swimming. The reason the flutter kick is most efficient there is that it keeps your legs/feet largely within the slipstream of your upper body. As you've pointed out, drag is proportional to speed. The flutter kick is efficient because it reduces drag at freestyle speeds. Breast-stroke, on the otherhand, is an "arms AND legs" stroke where much of the speed comes from the high-torque whip of the leg kick.

One kick is not "better" than the other, they are each simply more appropriate given the circumstances.

Horses for courses.

 

[rongoodman]

The next time I pass a SEAL team in the Mexican caves I'll pay careful attention to how they're kicking.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

LOL - since this is a "New Divers and Those Considering Diving" forum - most if not all will be new Open Water divers - no? I think Akimbo is on the right track...
Granted I was OW Certified along time ago - but Flutter kick was all we were taught. In OW Certification is it now the Frog kick?

 

[scjoe]

If you were to go to a pool with a kickboard, you would find that a single thrust from a full frog kick will propel you further than a single rlght/left flutter kick. However, if you were asked to do an 800 meter swim for time with fins and a mask, most people would revert to a flutter kick. A more powerful single kick is not, necessarily, a more efficient kick over a long distance. That is undoubtedly why military units use the flutter kick.
Most of the people I see with the so-called frog kick in scuba gear aren't doing a frog kick at all. I would call it a bent knee, heel clap kick. It doesn't stir up silt, but it has very little thrust. Most divers dive singles and one can easily cruise and glide with a flutter kick or a frog kick in such a set up. You can even do it in split fins. One can also use a sculling kick where the legs are kept straight. The efficiency of any kick depends on a variety of factors. Walking is more efficient than running at slow speeds. We naturally convert to a jog when walking ceases to be the most efficient method of propulsion.

 

[Sandie7]

LOL - since this is a "New Divers and Those Considering Diving" forum - most if not all will be new Open Water divers - no? I think Akimbo is on the right track...
Granted I was OW Certified along time ago - but Flutter kick was all we were taught. In OW Certification is it now the Frog kick?

Don't know about the others ... But I am only learning the Flutter Kick

 

[mruseless]

I've never mastered the frog kick... my knock knees make it more difficult for me and it seems to irritate my hips. When I dive, I don't generally try to cover too much "ground" since I'm looking for critters to film. Therefore the flutter kick I use doesn't tire me out, at least when I'm using my Apollo BioFins. Back when I used Jet Fins it was a different story. Your mileage may vary.

Also, some of the fins favored by the frog kickers are pretty heavy and not good for travel given airline weight restrictions. When I travel, I don't take my BioFins for that reason but use my ancient US Divers (now Aqualung) Blades which are lightweight.

There are a few options for light fins that are good for frog kicks. I favor the UTD positively buoyant fins for wet diving. Definitely not a heavy fin.

 

[underwaterbuddy]

I prefer the frog kick myself - it seems more relaxing compared to flutter kicks.

 

[Storker]

Like most students, I was taught the flutter kick in OW class. I taught myself the frog kick during my first year after certification, and after that I've rarely used the flutter kick at all, only when I need the power and speed that the flutter can provide.

For me, it's analogous to swimming on the surface: The crawl is great for speed, but I can swim longer and for a longer time with less exertion with the breaststroke.