Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[NAM001]

Most excellent!

Since we have somehow managed to show that there is disagreement as to condemning a cylinder even at the agency level, your statement above (even if unsubstantiated) is gold.

Should I ever need to take one of my tanks in for VIP the first thing that I will do is to ask if it will be VIP'd by a licensed hydro test facility. If the answer is 'No We will VIP your tank here' (and they are not a requalifier) then they will be politely reminded that they cannot condemn my cylinder in any fashion if it fails their VIP. And they were fore-warned.

Thank you.

I would see some problems with that approach. The requalifer only does a vis to meet the requalifying needs. They do not do a vis to support nitrox. You shop will have to do that when it comes to looking for hydrocarbons with the light etc. When the tank leaves the hydro it is good for air. And by the way the hydro stamp is also the vis for the first period after hydro. Many shops argue that also that you have to have a sticker. what you have to have is proof of vis.which is part of the hydro and covered by the stamp'

 

[lowviz]

I would see some problems with that approach.

My bad, I should have said licensed hydro test facility instead of requalifier.

Yes, there could be problems with my approach but they would be more like my cylinder and I getting the bum's rush out of the shop...

 

[NAM001]

Yes. You beat me to it. The XXXXX is sufficient to consider the cylinder irreversibly condemned, even though someone can still ignore it and fill it regardless. Which is then a different legal rabbit hole to jump down for that filler.


On the flip side, this conversation is reminding me to utilize that form. I have rarely condemned a tank that was not my own, and the conversations with the owner before X'ing out the SN were always reasonable and productive, but I do NOT want to be in the situation where I return a cylinder to a customer that I am confident should not be in service without the condemnation marking. Aside from just being the morally right thing to do, one could theoretically make a case that if that resulted in an incident somewhere down the road I could be blamed for not having initially procured the permission to to do my job.

Now, I do have it easy regarding VIPs. Not only is my shop not very busy, but almost everything that goes through my shop is aluminum and not steel. Then even the steel is being used locally in fresh water and not salt. Frankly, I have yet to find a pit to measure, so have not had to decide if it is too deep or not.

Again PSI is a letigous group whose goal is to insure you are not sued from failing to do the job right. Their steps are listed to cover the legal bases which coincide with the CFR's, because you will be sued for failing to comply with the CFR's. The permisison to destroy is teh CYA for teh vis guy to disable a condemned tank. If I wre nthe business of VIS'ing i would ask to keep the tank for display. and probably you wold fail one out of 1000 tanks. Those few tanks should provide comfort to the customer as to why some tanks were failed. It is both educational and good for PR You could also get a tank that has rust spots and pits where the bands or boot are as well as inside it to show what is good and bad about the tank and why the importance of the vis is what it is. It should also build confidence in the customer that you look at everything about the tank to insure it and the users safety. i HAVE SAID IN OTHER POSTS THAT i HAVE WATCHED (oops) a shop hae their 15 yo kid remove a valve tip the tank upside down hit it to knock the dust loose and fall out. then use a pen light to look inside, re install the valve and put a sticker on in less than 3 minutes. The public deserves better than that. When I took my first course the instructor showed me a tank that was but a month or so old. He sold it to them but failed it. Ther reeason,,,,,, the user surfaced and was hit by a boat prop and it put several shy of a 1/4 inch deep gouges in the outside of the tank.

 

[tursiops]

While it is totally legal to shop around until you find a visual inspector willing to pass your tank, I don't want to be a part of that nonsense.

He never said he wanted to shop around for someone to pass his tanks. He said he wanted to get a visual inspection that did not include the possibility of you making his tank unusable. You can fail my tank, and that's OK; perhaps you made a mistake, perhaps you didn't, but you cannot destroy my tank....that is for someone else to do, if in fact it needs it.

 

[rjack321]

He never said he wanted to shop around for someone to pass his tanks. He said he wanted to get a visual inspection that did not include the possibility of you making his tank unusable. You can fail my tank, and that's OK; perhaps you made a mistake, perhaps you didn't, but you cannot destroy my tank....that is for someone else to do, if in fact it needs it.

I'm not in this business but if I was it's pretty simple

If you don't trust me to do a good job (including why a tank should fail as needed)
Then I don't trust you to not VIP shop until you find someone who misses or ignores what I consider a disqualifying flaw (which is sometimes subjective). If it fails it needs to be permanently removed from service not sold on CL to someone else, or shopped to another inspector, or get some phony VIP sticker slapped on it at home etc.

Trust goes both ways

 

[tursiops]

I'm not in this business but if I was it's pretty simple

If you don't trust me to do a good job (including why a tank should fail as needed)
Then I don't trust you to not VIP shop until you find someone who misses or ignores what I consider a disqualifying flaw (which is sometimes subjective). If it fails it needs to be permanently removed from service not sold on CL to someone else, or shopped to another inspector, or get some phony VIP sticker slapped on it at home etc.

Trust goes both ways

I'm fine with you failing the tank.
I'm not fine with you destroying my tank.

 

[loosenit2]

I'm not in this business but if I was it's pretty simple

If you don't trust me to do a good job (including why a tank should fail as needed)
Then I don't trust you to not VIP shop until you find someone who misses or ignores what I consider a disqualifying flaw (which is sometimes subjective). If it fails it needs to be permanently removed from service not sold on CL to someone else, or shopped to another inspector, or get some phony VIP sticker slapped on it at home etc.

Trust goes both ways

Interesting point but doing this puts your business at risk. The typical LDS can ill afford to create animosity with their customers, their reputation is too valuable a commodity, especially when equipment is much more readily available from online vendors than it was 10 years ago and agencies are promoting online training so heavily. I would think that an LDS has much more to lose from a breaking of trust than a customer does.

 

[rjack321]

I'm fine with you failing the tank.
I'm not fine with you destroying my tank.

Like I said, I'm not in the VIP business.

But if I was, I wouldn't let tanks I think should fail go out the door in a condition where they could either be sold to an unsuspecting buyer or refilled. So PSI's release would be a part of my business practices because its required for me as a lowly scuba VIPer to XXXX out your DOT numbers. I don't believe in "destroying" tanks as in drilling holes in them or mangling threads. That is unnecessary and prohibits the recycling of failed tanks for non-DOT, non-Scuba purposes. I have a failed lp72 (internally pitted) that is an extra 150psi receiving tank for my shop compressor for instance.

 

[rjack321]

Interesting point but doing this puts your business at risk. The typical LDS can ill afford to create animosity with their customers, their reputation is too valuable a commodity, especially when equipment is much more readily available from online vendors than it was 10 years ago and agencies are promoting online training so heavily. I would think that an LDS has much more to lose from a breaking of trust than a customer does.

I definitely don't have a million dollars to lose on a scuba shop so I don't have one.

 

[tursiops]

Like I said, I'm not in the VIP business.

But if I was, I wouldn't let tanks I think should fail go out the door in a condition where they could either be sold to an unsuspecting buyer or refilled. So PSI's release would be a part of my business practices because its required for me as a lowly scuba VIPer to XXXX out your DOT numbers. I don't believe in "destroying" tanks as in drilling holes in them or mangling threads. That is unnecessary and prohibits the recycling of failed tanks for non-DOT, non-Scuba purposes. I have a failed lp72 (internally pitted) that is an extra 150psi receiving tank for my shop compressor for instance.

Word games. You XXX my numbers and my tank is now unusable for my purposes. You have no right to do that and no need to do that. Just don't pass it and you've done your job. I'm sorry, if that means I do not trust you, so be it. I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over it.

Note Malcolm Gladwell's new book, which is about trusting strangers, and how it is against our best interests.