TDI Full cave not always accepted?

[Taliena]

Hihi, no cave in the Netherlands. But I know that Germany can be strange. With a TDI certificate you aren't allowed to dive alone in Brilon (you must hire a guide). I asked why, because iantd, gue, nacd are accepted there, but TDI not. They didn't answer. So I don't know the reason. Maybe it's the depth of 40 m. but if you have a certificate to dive deeper, whats the problem? And a normal iantd full cave is for 40m. depth too. I know a lake in Germany where only CMAS divers are allowed to dive. So I can dive there, because I have CMAS 3*, but my friend won't, because he has PADI AOW. Germany don't like Padi certificates I think (another place: padi aow: 25m. depth, cmas 2*: 40m. depth, both advanced open water diver). France only CMAS? I don't know.

 

[jago]

France only CMAS? I don't know.

Everything you have to know about french scuba diving rules is here. Unfortunately there isn't any official translation.

 

[iru]

For Jago:
"Of course, most if not all french cave sites don't require any cert or entrance fee."
****, so there is somebody cheating, because many guys I know, who went to dive to French caves, were charged for diving.

"FSGT, SNMP and ANMP but foreign CMAS 3* (both instructors and divers) are not recognized."
And isn’t it bit dumb? Not to recognize foreign associations? For example take a look at Pascal Bernabe, Mr. Cave Diver. He is IT for cave diving of CMAS and TDI. Do you think that when he teaches, his TDI course could be worse than his CMAS course?

"Very open minded, you deserves to be french-diver."
Has nothing to do with opened mind, it’s just a matter of experience. For many PADI divers instead of being a buddy or guide I had to be au-pair or almost baby-sitter to them.

"Everything you have to know about french scuba diving rules is here. Unfortunately there isn't any official translation."
Why do I have a feeling, that is only about diving with pure air?

 

[jago]

For Jago:
"Of course, most if not all french cave sites don't require any cert or entrance fee."
****, so there is somebody cheating, because many guys I know, who went to dive to French caves, were charged for diving.

Which sites ?

"FSGT, SNMP and ANMP but foreign CMAS 3* (both instructors and divers) are not recognized."
And isn’t it bit dumb? Not to recognize foreign associations? For example take a look at Pascal Bernabe, Mr. Cave Diver. He is IT for cave diving of CMAS and TDI. Do you think that when he teaches, his TDI course could be worse than his CMAS course?

I'm not responsible of this situation. I didn't approved these rules, actually I strongly support and supported full recognition to WRSTC / ANDI / TDI / GUE / NAUI & NauiTec / ISE ... certifications.

"Everything you have to know about french scuba diving rules is here. Unfortunately there isn't any official translation."
Why do I have a feeling, that is only about diving with pure air?

Because you are wrong. See the google trad of the 2nd link on the page : Google Traduction

 

[ZephyrNYC]

I asked the owner of Brilon why a TDI full cave diver only can dive there with a guide and a IANTD/NACD full cave diver can dive a he want, without a guide. OK, Brilon is deeper than 40 m. But should this the reason?

But normally you can dive with a TDI certificate where you want?

I know this thread is old. But is this still true today in 2016? Are TDI full cave divers still not allowed to dive that cave?

 

[Germie]

Yes, that is still true. For exemple in the Nuttlarmine: www.bergwerktauchen.de under 'tauchvoraussetzungen' you can read it. It is in German.
Same with Schwalefeldmine. Miltitz you can dive with a TDI cert, but you need to have a trimix cert too if you want to do trimixdives (and need to have extra gas for rescue emergencies).
If you have an IANTD cert, then no problems in the mines in Germany. The reason is that the owners of the mines had problems with bad trained divers by some agencies. So they made a list of 'recognised agencies' themselves. Same reason that no rebreathers are allowed in some mines, or just after a checkdive and ccr cave cert. DPV never allowed. If an accident happens, they have big problems to hold an mine open for diving.

 

[ZephyrNYC]

Yes, that is still true. For exemple in the Nuttlarmine: www.bergwerktauchen.de under 'tauchvoraussetzungen' you can read it. It is in German.
Same with Schwalefeldmine. Miltitz you can dive with a TDI cert, but you need to have a trimix cert too if you want to do trimixdives (and need to have extra gas for rescue emergencies).
If you have an IANTD cert, then no problems in the mines in Germany. The reason is that the owners of the mines had problems with bad trained divers by some agencies. So they made a list of 'recognised agencies' themselves. Same reason that no rebreathers are allowed in some mines, or just after a checkdive and ccr cave cert. DPV never allowed. If an accident happens, they have big problems to hold an mine open for diving.

Thanks for your reply, Germie. You mean this URL:
http://www.bergwerktauchen.de/tauchvoraussetzungen-fuer-hoelentaucher

I ran it through Google Translate for the benefit of the non-German readers of this thread. The entire English translation of that page can be viewed at:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.bergwerktauchen.de/tauchvoraussetzungen-fuer-hoelentaucher&edit-text=&act=url

Below are just a few of the rules from that web page. There are others on that page that I didn't paste below. I highlighted certain text in boldface for emphasis.
At the top of the page:

"Diving in the mine
The diving conditions for certified cave divers

Please note that when registering for diving in the mine, the following documents must be presented:

• Valid certification from the field Cave Diving
• Valid medical statement
• Valid proof of insurance

If it is not presented in the application of these documents, the divers can not dive in the slate mine Nuttlar and the money can not be refunded, since the tickets are permanently assigned."

Then I skipped ahead to:
"§1 Scope
1. The agreement applies to all Gerätetauchsport-, snorkeling, diving and swimming activities in the slate mine Nuttlar."

I skipped ahead to:
"§2 licensing procedures and fees
The use of the slate mine Nuttlar to the activities named in § 1 may be authorized only on proof of appropriate training and presentation of the relevant certifications a corresponding Diving Association. Full Cave Certified persons following associations: IANDT (sic), NACD, NSS / CDS, GUE, ISE, UTD, PATD, CMAS CH"

"and GUE and ISE Cave 1 divers can no check dive dive in the slate mine Nuttlar Cave 1 Diver other associations, as well as cave divers from. not listed here associations, in advance require a check dive. For this purpose, appointments are required.

When signing up for diving in the mine, a valid insurance certificate must be presented.

2. The use of the slate mine Nuttlar for training purposes is expressly permitted only to persons who belong to a recognized diving organization and have valid liability insurance for the proposed training.

3. The use permit is for the operator to those who submit the relevant certifications. The operator can call for, among other things, that the user undergoes before use of a so-called "check-Dive" and the operator puts his skills to the test. The operator may prohibit further without giving any reason with or without check-dive the user to use before issuing the use permit permanently.

4. The operator can the user withdraw the use even after use permit granted if have arisen for that doubts about the diving skills of the user or that violates principles of diving.

5. The user undertakes other as well as log out at the mine diving UG.
Also, the user undertakes to indicate the length of the dive.
The operator points out that if I fail to logout and when exceeding the specified immersion time of more than 45 minutes, if necessary, the rescue chain is set in motion. If the user is responsible for this due to its failure to unsubscribe, he is liable for the resulting costs, as well as for the damage (including consequential loss) incurred by the operator as a result of these bailouts and the blocking of the diving area.

6. When registering, the user acknowledges that he in possession of a valid diving medical report (certificate) - not older than two years - is, which is produced on request to the operator or his agent.Similarly, at the request of a logbook of the dive experience of the user is required."

More from a later section regarding rebreathers:
"4. rebreather diving (incl. PSCR) is only possible for a check dive. Excluded are divers with the appropriate training, which also refers to the cave area.It is strongly recommended appropriate training in CCR and PSCR to complete cave diving."

Did I understand this Google Translation correctly? "Full Cave divers of the IANTD, NACD, NSS / CDS, GUE, ISE, UTD, PATD, CMAS CH; and Cave 1 divers of the GUE and ISE do NOT require a check dive?" This means that ISE Cave 1 divers are held in higher (or equal) regard, than Full Cave divers of the other named organizations. Is the approved agencies list the same for other caves? Or different? It would be very confusing if each cave or mine in Germany each had a different list lol.

 

[Germie]

yes, you read it correct. GUE and ISE are not mentioned twice, but there is written that the cave2 (full cave) certs are accepted, AND the cave1 of gue and ise.

In German there is written;
Full Cave zertifizierte Personen folgender Verbände: IANDT, NACD, NSS/CDS, GUE, ISE, UTD, PATD, CMAS CH sowie GUE und ISE Cave 1 Taucher können ohne Check Dive im Schieferbergwerk Nuttlar tauchen.

The reason for c1 of gue and ise is that an intro to cave diver is not allowed to dive T's and a gue/ise c1 diver 1. So they can dive then parts of the 'cave1 section, called 'Katze''. They still have to dive within their certification limits.

Rebreather diving is in this mine no problem if you have a ccr cave card. Rebreather diving in 2 other mines is prohibited (or just a small group after checkdives and ccr cave card are accepted).
Confusing? maybe, but I never had problems to get in the mines, even not with a ccr. As you follow the rules you can dive what you want.
You dive on private area, but if there an accident happens it is possible you have to close for all diving activities. So better safe than sorry.

 

[ZephyrNYC]

yes, you read it correct. GUE and ISE are not mentioned twice, but there is written that the cave2 (full cave) certs are accepted, AND the cave1 of gue and ise.

In German there is written;
Full Cave zertifizierte Personen folgender Verbände: IANDT, NACD, NSS/CDS, GUE, ISE, UTD, PATD, CMAS CH sowie GUE und ISE Cave 1 Taucher können ohne Check Dive im Schieferbergwerk Nuttlar tauchen.

The reason for c1 of gue and ise is that an intro to cave diver is not allowed to dive T's and a gue/ise c1 diver 1. So they can dive then parts of the 'cave1 section, called 'Katze''. They still have to dive within their certification limits.

Rebreather diving is in this mine no problem if you have a ccr cave card. Rebreather diving in 2 other mines is prohibited (or just a small group after checkdives and ccr cave card are accepted).
Confusing? maybe, but I never had problems to get in the mines, even not with a ccr. As you follow the rules you can dive what you want.
You dive on private area, but if there an accident happens it is possible you have to close for all diving activities. So better safe than sorry.

Thanks for explaining, Germie. So GUE an ISE Cave 1 divers are equal. I went ahead and edited my text above, so as not to confuse other readers.

 

[Germie]

ise c1 is 1 gap and 1 jump. So a little difference with gue C1. But both more than intro to cave from other agencies. But if you dive the mines you are limited to the rules of your cert.