Thankfully, all four divers came back out of the hole ...

[bowlofpetunias]

When I am away to new sites and they provide a DM guide I know they watch us in the water to judge our skill level ..... well guess what we need to watch them to judge theirs too!

I have seen noob DM's that were fresh off course..... well courses because they took one course after another and did all their dives up to DM with an instructor!
I watched one on the boat having trouble assembling her gear..... my normal buddy wasn't diving that dive and the crew wanted to buddy me with her and I flat out refused!

She even announced.... "I am a DM now so everyone has to follow me" My group of very experienced buddies signaled starburst. We hit the bottom and took off in oposit directions in buddy pairs and left her to decide who to follow. We had all made multiple trips to this location, knew it well and the dive operator did not provide us with a DM or guide after our first few dives with them.

She had booked on as a diver and was not part of the staff at that operator so we felt she did not have a right to impose her control on us. We did keep an eye on her of course because she was the least competent person on that boat DM certificate or not and we weren't going to risk anyone's safety.

The most important lessons to learn are that it is ok to call off a dive for any reason, if you don't feel ready... you aren't so don't let anyone push you into it.... Your decision, your life, your holiday.... don't let anyone else's decision ruin it. There will be another day to dive that way.

Yep there are good and bad in every field.... It is my decision who I should or would trust my life to!

 

[TSandM]

My first reaction is to contrast this situation with the Chandelier cave issue from another thread, because they're a beautiful contrast.

The person who asked about Chandelier cave had a ton of data about the cave -- depth, length, bottom composition, presence of air domes, etc. The person in this thread had NO information about what lay on the other side of the hole. There is no guarantee that sea caves will be silt-free, without branches, or free of restrictions. ALL of the hazards that kill untrained divers in caves could have been present here (as they were in the case of an OW instructor who died, I believe last year, when entering a sea cave). I am cave trained, and I would not have entered that hole without it having been covered in the pre-dive briefing. The fact that the DM obviously felt comfortable going into the hole doesn't even really argue that HE knew what was in it; I'm sure the instructor who died in the sea cave entered his hole confidently, too.

The OP did the right thing, and it's really telling and frightening that his wife followed the leader into an unknown overhead environment.

 

[AZjohn]

Thanks for your post highdesert.

Just another reminder for me that (as others have posted) I'm only certified for OW dives period. I know technical/cave divers go through a lot of training and have very specific gear to do dives like that. I had the privilege of meeting a DIR instructor on a boat in San Diego last weekend. I had a ton of questions for him but one of the first was asking why such a long hose for his second stage. He explained that if he had to help an OOA diver in a cave that had a small opening that using this long hose would allow the other dive to swim behind him rather than side-by-side.

When you said the opening was only 3 feet in diameter and you were at 800 psi the first thing that hit me was what if one of those divers went in and had an OOA situation???

I also applaud you for your action (or inaction) of not following the guide. Helps to reinforce I don't either.
Thanks,
John

 

[highdesert]

- So, you're saying their briefings were thorough. Did they brief you on the cavern you are going to visit during the dive?

- And why did you go into this cavern if this is something that goes against your principles? It was an overhead as well, right?

- And just why would you not talk to any one of the guides after the dive? Why wouldn't you even ask your wife what was out there? How did you know this wasn't a way out of an overhead environment you were in already?

- Personally I'm not familiar with the divesite you're describing and I suppose a huge majority of SBers wouldn't be as well.

- We don't know what it was like over there, yet you wish to discuss whether we would have gone in or not with us while at the same time you've missed three opportunities to communicate right there - during the briefing; right before entering the big cavern and after the dive.

*********************

My point about the briefings was that they "had" been thorough, which made this situation a surprise on this dive.

I have no issue going into an amphitheater ("cavern" may have not been totally accurate) that has an opening thirty by forty feet, and is clear of snags or obstacles. Even if someone had to do a CESA in this environment, they would have gotten clear of the opening easily. There were other occasions on this trip where there were large swim-throughs (yes, covered in the briefings) where you could see the exit as you entered. But technically they were overhead environments. I would not avoid those either.

When I can see a thirty by forty opening to blue water right behind me, and a small, silted black hole in front of me, I know where the exit is. And not having been briefed, why would I assume, "Gee, I guess this little black hole must be the exit"? Knowing, after the fact, that a Swiss team had at some point "explored" this cave and "found" an opening to the surface, to me that reinforces the point that an unprepared, untrained diver could have gotten disoriented and lost in this dark, silted environment. And I have stated in my OP that I understand my failure in not bringing this up to the DM after the dive.

You're right ... you're not familiar with the divesite, and I only asked you and others to comment based on my remarks.

If all of the briefings to that point had been thorough, and had covered swim-throughs, then how did I miss a chance at communicating during the briefing? Should I have assumed that I needed to routinely ask at every briefing, "Are there any overhead environments on this dive that you have not told us about?"

Now, having made all of the above points, I still take your points positively and seriously.

 

[InTheDrink]

Increasingly I am starting to ask questions during a dive briefing, like where's the emergency O2. Invariably they say: we know where it is so you don't need to worry. Invariably I say: And what happens if you get hurt?

I think I'm going to start adding more questions to my list. One without doubt being: will there be any overhead environments. If so, what kind?

That might even be a useful thread to start - Questions to ask during a dive briefing to avoid the worst excesses of cavalier DMs.

Thanks to the OP for showing backbone.

 

[highdesert]

When you said the opening was only 3 feet in diameter and you were at 800 psi the first thing that hit me was what if one of those divers went in and had an OOA situation???

Thanks,
John

Precisely.

 

[mislav]

If all of the briefings to that point had been thorough, and had covered swim-throughs, then how did I miss a chance at communicating during the briefing? Should I have assumed that I needed to routinely ask at every briefing, "Are there any overhead environments on this dive that you have not told us about?"

LOL. Of course not.

You said the briefings were thorough and also mentioned divers had flashlights. I've assumed you were told about entering the cavern and the cave prior to the dive.

Otherwise, you've done the right thing not diving beyond the limits of your training or your zone of comfort.

Sorry to hear your wife wasn't a good buddy.

 

[Seaduced]

Let's see... no training... no equipment... no plan... no air... you definitely made the right decision.

Not necessarily in your case Highdesert, but I see folks posting about not speaking up before or after an uncomfortable dive or situation. We have to say something, otherwise it will happen again and again until ...

 

[Arizona]

Highdesert,

Again thanks for sharing your experience. It seems the consensus is you did the right thing. Ask your buddy what she would have done if it had been reversed. Would she have expected you to look back and make sure she was okay following the leader at that point? Have you done any wreck diving in bad vis yet? Applying this to another situation, would you both stay together on the line and not separate? I have seen divers shoot down descent lines to wrecks and not look back to see if their buddies were okay. We should start a buddy protocol thread

Arizona

 

[highdesert]

Highdesert,

Again thanks for sharing your experience. It seems the consensus is you did the right thing. Ask your buddy what she would have done if it had been reversed. Would she have expected you to look back and make sure she was okay following the leader at that point? Have you done any wreck diving in bad vis yet? Applying this to another situation, would you both stay together on the line and not separate? I have seen divers shoot down descent lines to wrecks and not look back to see if their buddies were okay. We should start a buddy protocol thread

Arizona

No wreck diving to date, and not really an interest of ours ... more power to people who are into it, but we just don't have the urge ... which actually further reinforces the idea of staying clear of any hazard which requires "entering" into it.