Thankfully, all four divers came back out of the hole ...

[mjh]

Highdesert,

I think you handled the situation fine. It is up to each diver to decide what they are comfortable doing or not doing. As others have mentioned this was in part a buddy issue. As someone who dives with their spouse believe me we have been through the same situations.

We depart for Raja Jan 1st, so curious who the op was? Personally I have no problem with the DMs actions in this case.

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

To me it would be enough that a diver is in a good shape, has good buoyancy control, ability to deal with a flooded mask without panic and doesn't suffer from claustrophobia.

The situational awareness includes: monitored air supply to finish the dive with reserve left for the buddy, good buddy communication, necessary equipment (light). Diver's buddy must posses the same attributes.

I don't think any specific training is required for silt-free, WELL-LIT holes.

Oh, I agree 100%. If you are an experienced diver then these dives are fine. Just don't let new divers, divers who are dependant on others, or those with bad skills try it.


Note that the OP stated all the divers were 'reasonably experienced': as most divers who venture to Raja Ampat are: very few new divers would know where Raja is, let alone have dived it. Furthermore the dive master had already dived with them over several days- so the boat crew should have a good idea of their skills.

So, seeing that we have reasonably experienced divers who have been sized up by the DM I don't see the issue with doing a shallow swim through. If they don't want to do it then just communicate it. Yes it's a pity that it wasn't in the brief: but if it's like many drift dives in the region it can be hard to predict where you will be in 60 minutes time.

The described dive sounds like a normal dive by experienced divers anywhere in these here parts. So I am somewhat bemused by the sensationalist title and the number of people who have suggested that these dives can't be done without specific overhead training...


Cheers,
Rohan.

 

[irishsquid]

My thoughts are kinda backwards on this and maybe too critical, but here goes:
None of the folks in that hole seem to make for a good dive buddy. During 3-4 mins. in a dark silted hole, none of them noticed you weren't with them. A lot sure can happen in that time frame, and no one knew where you was. Of course, this is all an assumption on my part.

 

[TSandM]

So I am somewhat bemused by the sensationalist title and the number of people who have suggested that these dives can't be done without specific overhead training..

I didn't say this dive couldn't be done without overhead training. I said I wouldn't swim into a small, dark and silty hole about which I knew nothing, just because somebody else did. And I love small, dark holes (preferably not too silty). But I either want to know exactly what I'm getting into, or I want to do my small, dark holes when properly equipped to ensure I get back out of them!

 

[wedivebc]

and where are the incident reports to back up the claim its guides that get people killed?

Didn't a dive op in Hawaii get sued a couple of years ago for just that?

 

[highdesert]

So, seeing that we have reasonably experienced divers who have been sized up by the DM I don't see the issue with doing a shallow swim through. If they don't want to do it then just communicate it. Yes it's a pity that it wasn't in the brief: but if it's like many drift dives in the region it can be hard to predict where you will be in 60 minutes time.

The described dive sounds like a normal dive by experienced divers anywhere in these here parts. So I am somewhat bemused by the sensationalist title and the number of people who have suggested that these dives can't be done without specific overhead training...

Cheers,
Rohan.

Are we talking about the same thing here??? Yes, we did a number of shallow swim-throughs on this trip ... I have no issue with them, and look forward to the variety they add to a dive. But "shallow swim through" in no way describes what I am talking about. And I reiterate, yet again, that this hole was found at some point to have another, higher exit, by a group prepared to explore it. That, to me, means there was the high likelihood of some kind of hazard in there, particularly for rec divers unprepared for exploration of a dark, silted passage, and given that, I see nothing sensational about the title of the OP.

 

[Web Monkey]

That might even be a useful thread to start - Questions to ask during a dive briefing to avoid the worst excesses of cavalier DMs.

That wouldn't help. The best dive briefing I ever got was from the guy who tried to run my brand-new (7 dives) buddy out of air. In fact, it was such a good briefing that I was actually making mental notes for when I do briefings. Unfortunately, it was all fantasy. The DM can tell you that you're going on a 15' dive in in clear water over a beautiful sandy bottom with happy little fish, then 5 minutes later try to take you in to a dark hole in a rock.

About all you can do is use good judgment and not do anything you feel is dangerous. I dive wrecks all the time, but would never follow someone into a random hole that wasn't mentioned in the dive plan. In fact, I'd probably grab his fin and give him the "Are you ********** crazy?" sign followed by the "Me and my buddy are staying here signs."

Terry

 

[highdesert]

... In fact, I'd probably grab his fin and give him the "Are you ********** crazy?" sign followed by the "Me and my buddy are staying here signs."

Terry

For my future reference, if this should occur again, what is the "Are you ********** crazy?" sign?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Didn't a dive op in Hawaii get sued a couple of years ago for just that?

A simple web search would save you the appearance of being a troll. The lady that drowned was both inexperienced and badly trained, to the point she should not have been certified.

starbulletin.com | News | /2006/05/25/

Her rental deflator was broke/jammed so that air added to the BC came right out. If she were horizontal with the deflator below her the BC would have held quite a bit of air. Instead she was vertical at 10' struggling to swim to the surface (without ditching weights), spit out her reg, swallowed water and drowned at a 30' deep dive site, with 2 functional regs and a nearly full tank (IIRC).

There was no overhead and the guide/instructor did not guide her into anything because this was the initial descent.

The family lawyer went after the manufacturer, distributor and dive shop. Even though many thought the dive shop could have defended themselves, it would have been months of bad press, so they settled (with the other defendants).

Can't see how this incident has anything to do with this thread.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I find myself seriously on the fence here. While I agree that your wife should have stayed with you and decided with you whether or not to follow ( she is your buddy, and not the guide's), and also agree that it most certainly should have been mentioned in the briefing, I would be lying if I said that I probably wouldnt have followed the guide into this space. (after conferring with my buddy)

It's a difficult one for sure. In my case what I should do in the situation is not enter, what would I have done? No clue, I can't possibly know that sitting here at my computer.

Now if I did make the decision not to enter and saw my buddy entering, it probably would have made a difference who my buddy was when deciding what to do. If it was someone I had just met, I'd be less inclined to stop them from entering. Were it a wife or someone close to me, and I saw them entering, I probably would have grabbed their fin as fast as I could.

Whether or not people should treat their certification limits like the bible or they should just use them as rough guidelines to help build your own comfort level, is its own topic entirely, as is is the dive master's responsibility to check these qualifications. But probably the biggest thing that sticks out here is in situations where it seems reasonable that a large percentage of people will be untrained and/or uncomfortable (such as entering a cavern), it needs to be discussed ahead of time on the boat. That way at least you aren't stuck making the decision at 100 feet when your buddy is already entering the hole. I guess the guide not speaking English probably didn't help matters.